Author Topic: Virus accidentally released from lab ?  (Read 20777 times)

Offline LvsChant

  • Resident Master Mudder
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 7718
  • Karma: 613
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #90 on: February 29, 2020, 03:42:47 PM »
One thing I've been pondering... in the other thread about this virus, FreeLancer (iirc) mentioned that this virus seems to hit ethnic Chinese harder than some other groups. If they were developing a bioweapon to use on others and it got loose accidentally, they weren't very good at it.

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #91 on: February 29, 2020, 05:04:22 PM »
One thing I've been pondering... in the other thread about this virus, FreeLancer (iirc) mentioned that this virus seems to hit ethnic Chinese harder than some other groups. If they were developing a bioweapon to use on others and it got loose accidentally, they weren't very good at it.

Interestingly, the Chinese military has claimed the other way.  They alleged the virus was generated in the US at UNC-Chapel Hill.  Their theory is that Wuhan Lab scientist Zhengli Shi provided a naturally occuring bat virus which was modified at UNC using the AIDS virus to experiment how it can move from bats to humans. Then the US double-crossed them and released it in China.

Here is that research:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985
A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence

The emergence of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)-CoV underscores the threat of cross-species transmission events leading to outbreaks in humans. Here we examine the disease potential of a SARS-like virus, SHC014-CoV, which is currently circulating in Chinese horseshoe bat populations1. Using the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system2, we generated and characterized a chimeric virus expressing the spike of bat coronavirus SHC014 in a mouse-adapted SARS-CoV backbone.

One of few English articles on the military claim:

https://gnews.org/102795/
Chinese military website: Wuhan Coronavirus is manmade by the U.S.

On Feb 1, 2020, the most influential Chinese military website www.xilu.com published an article to acknowledge that the Wuhan coronavirus is manmade accusing the U.S. of creating such bioweapon against china.

http://www.xilu.com/20200201/1000010001119927_19.html (please avoid visiting Chinese Websites due to computer viruses)

According to Miles Guo, the publication of this article became a turning point in the history of mankind. It opened Pandora’s Box of the Chinese Communist Party.


Of course, it is much more likely that the Wuhan lab release was accidental.  So it is likely the military story is internal targetted propoganda to shed blame from the Wuhan labs.

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2020, 08:15:38 AM »
Confirms rumors that national communist party stopped local authority reports.  These were the early ones which suggested a lab connection.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/China-penalizes-400-local-officials-as-public-ire-mounts
China penalizes 400 local officials as public ire mounts
Party acknowledges missteps in handling coronavirus


The Chinese Communist Party has acknowledged "shortcomings" in the response to the coronavirus and has punished hundreds of local officials in a bid to defuse public anger toward the party for failing to nip the outbreak in the bud.
...

Wuhan Mayor Zhou Xianwang acknowledged in a Jan. 27 interview on state-run China Central Television that local authorities had "failed to disclose relevant information in a timely manner."

But Zhou hinted that the central government also bore some responsibility. "As a local government, we can only disclose information after being authorized," he said.

Wuhan party chief Ma Guoqiang appeared on CCTV on Friday at what is believed to have been the direction of the party's Publicity Department, which oversees the station. "I feel ashamed of myself," he said. "If we had taken strong measures earlier, the situation would be much better."
« Last Edit: March 01, 2020, 08:22:39 AM by iam4liberty »

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2020, 07:35:54 AM »
https://londonlovesbusiness.com/scientist-says-covid-19-is-man-made-and-was-released-from-wuhan-lab/
Scientist says Covid-19 is man made and was released from Wuhan lab

A Taiwanese scientist has claimed Chinese microbiologists probably created coronavirus in Wuhan, China.

Based on the virus unusual structure it is most likely “man made” and there is a theory coronavirus was somehow leaked or released from the Institute of Virology in Wuhan China, said Professor Fang Chi-tai from the National Taiwan University (NTU).

Professor Fang said China’s track record with safety standards and laboratory management has been questioned in the past.

The Professor claims it was very possible that the Wuhan Chinese scientists created the deadly virus by simply adding four amino acids to an existing bat virus, which therefore makes it much easier to transmit to people.

Professor Fang added, “The mutations found in the novel coronavirus are unusual in an academic sense.

“It is indeed possible that it is a man-made product.

“From an academic point of view, it is indeed possible that the amino acids were added to COVID-19 in the lab by humans.”

Offline Mr. Bill

  • Like a hot cocoa mojito
  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 15285
  • Karma: 1876
  • Trained Attack Sheepdog/Troll hunter
    • Website Maintenance and Online Presence Management by Mr. Bill
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2020, 12:46:54 PM »
Scientist says Covid-19 is man made and was released from Wuhan lab

Here is a longer version of what he had to say:

Taiwan News, 2/24/20: Taiwanese professor says Wuhan coronavirus likely man-made

Needless to say, his opinion is not universally shared among virus researchers.

Offline Mr. Bill

  • Like a hot cocoa mojito
  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 15285
  • Karma: 1876
  • Trained Attack Sheepdog/Troll hunter
    • Website Maintenance and Online Presence Management by Mr. Bill
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2020, 01:23:20 PM »
Here's a blog post that explains a lot of virus technical info in (relatively) plain English:

Ricki Lewis, 2/20/20: COVID-19 Vaccine Will Close in on the Spikes

The discussion here is about how a virus works, what its structure is, and how that info can be used to design a vaccine.  But there's also a bit about the possible origin of the virus:

Quote
...COVID-19 and the SARS-CoV have a common ancestor, a bat coronavirus. But COVID-19 is actually closer to the bat virus, sharing 96% of its genome sequence, compared to about 86% with SARS-CoV. And muddying the waters further, COVID-19’s spike gene shares a 39-base insertion with a type of soldierfish that swims in the South China Sea.

Somehow, the virus that evolved into COVID-19 may have started in a bat in 2013 and gotten into fish that ended up in the Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market at the epicenter of the pandemic. ...

Yet again, this comes from a non-peer-reviewed preprint that was revised by the authors after another researcher pointed out that the "shared 39-base insertion" is not a perfect duplicate of the fish genome, and is most likely a statistical fluke.  Lots of people have been comparing the COVID-19 genome to huge genome libraries -- they find a chance similarity, release a pre-print, and get slapped down for using an analysis tool without a deep understanding of the underlying statistics.

I think that Fang Chi-tai's "adding four amino acids" claim is similar.  Four amino acids represents only 12 bases ("letters" in the RNA/DNA code).  Putting it in computer terms, that's 24 bits or 3 bytes of data.  Given how viruses work, it's quite a jump to look at 3 bytes and take that as proof of human-directed genetic engineering.  Viruses genetically engineer themselves continuously.  Another quote from the blog post:

Quote
...The confusion arises from the promiscuity of RNA viruses. Over the ages, they swap genetic material, mutate, and lose and gain pieces of themselves. The result is a constant spawning of patchwork genomes that under some circumstances harm the host species. And our bodies help it all along, sneezing, oozing, bleeding, or crapping out zillions of viruses before either expiring or recovering. ...

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2020, 02:19:19 PM »
Wuhan Lab in question hid from public they had full sequencing of virus and has now pursued patent for treatment using a US firm's drug.

https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1005169/wuhans-much-maligned-virology-institute-seeks-patent-on-us-drug
Wuhan’s Much-Maligned Virology Institute Seeks Patent on US Drug
After being criticized for inaction early in the coronavirus epidemic, China’s top virus lab is under fire for rushing to secure the usage patent for a drug it didn’t develop.


On Chinese social media, some people view the virology institute’s move as a callous cash grab after it failed to warn and protect the people of Wuhan.

“(The institute) is slow at figuring out whether the virus is contagious but pretty fast at filing patent applications,” wrote one user on microblogging platform Weibo. “The Wuhan Institute of Virology can take care of everything except sounding the alarm and treating disease,” wrote another.

The virology institute filed the remdesivir usage patent on Jan. 21 — several days before the drug was used to relieve symptoms in a coronavirus patient in the U.S., and two weeks before clinical trials began in Wuhan on Feb. 3.
...
If the usage patent application is approved, Gilead may not be able to sell its own drug for the purpose of treating the novel coronavirus without the institute’s consent, Xia said
...
The reputation of the Wuhan Institute of Virology has taken a few hits since news of the outbreak first started circulating in early January. As the number of confirmed cases began to rise each day, resentment simmered on Chinese social media, with many criticizing the institute for not responding appropriately and promptly to the outbreak.

“I don’t think (the institute) did its due diligence,” said Huang Yanzhong, a global health expert specializing in China at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.
...
To Huang, however, the virology institute’s handling of the current crisis has been a letdown.

“The lab specializes in virus research and is located at the epicenter — yet it seems to me that the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences, the Chinese CDC, and the Academy of Military Medical Sciences did most of the work in sequencing the coronavirus’ genome,” Huang told Sixth Tone.

In a statement released Jan. 29, the Wuhan Institute of Virology said it had sequenced the entire genome of the novel coronavirus on Jan. 2. But the Chinese public was not informed of the successful sequencing until Jan. 10, when a research group led by scientists from the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center and Fudan University published their data.
...
stories about whether the coronavirus was engineered and leaked by Shi Zhengli, a coronavirus specialist at the institute, have gained traction on Chinese social media. Some netizens point to a 2015 study in which Shi and her team described how they had isolated a coronavirus found in bats and made it infectious to humans by manipulating a key protein.
...
In addition to criticism of the virology institute itself, people have also expressed doubts about the competency of its leader.

Several articles widely circulated on social app WeChat have accused Wang Yanyi, the institute’s director-general, of having a weak academic background and ascending to her post through nepotism at a relatively young age. Some suspect Wang was only picked to lead the institute because of her husband, who is an academician with the Chinese Academy of Sciences and the virology institute’s former director.
...
“What we are feeling now — disoriented and torn apart — is all because of the nepotism that put Wang where she is now,” one of the WeChat articles said.

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2020, 02:54:51 PM »
Here's a blog post that explains a lot of virus technical info in (relatively) plain English:

Ricki Lewis, 2/20/20: COVID-19 Vaccine Will Close in on the Spikes

The discussion here is about how a virus works, what its structure is, and how that info can be used to design a vaccine.  But there's also a bit about the possible origin of the virus:

Yet again, this comes from a non-peer-reviewed preprint that was revised by the authors after another researcher pointed out that the "shared 39-base insertion" is not a perfect duplicate of the fish genome, and is most likely a statistical fluke.  Lots of people have been comparing the COVID-19 genome to huge genome libraries -- they find a chance similarity, release a pre-print, and get slapped down for using an analysis tool without a deep understanding of the underlying statistics.

I think that Fang Chi-tai's "adding four amino acids" claim is similar.  Four amino acids represents only 12 bases ("letters" in the RNA/DNA code).  Putting it in computer terms, that's 24 bits or 3 bytes of data.  Given how viruses work, it's quite a jump to look at 3 bytes and take that as proof of human-directed genetic engineering.  Viruses genetically engineer themselves continuously.  Another quote from the blog post:

It is hard to dismiss these facts:

1. There has been no identified intermediary infected animal found.  Tests of alleged snakes, ant-eaters, and now fish have produced no legitimate contender
2. The lab did engineer a bat coronavirus to specifically infect humans so as to understand how such viruses move from animals to humans.  The source virus is the closest known match.  The modified virus has not been released for comparison.
3. There were long-standing, grave concerns by scientists regarding the ability of the lab to contain the viruses they stored.
4. There were several documented incidents at the lab where workers with the bats were exposed and had to be quarantined.  There were also several documented instances of experimental animals being released at other labs, including into food markets.
5. The identified patient zero worked at the lab and had no connection with the market.  This person has subsequently vanished from public sight.
6. The government in response to the outbreak has clamped down on lab safety, calling it a matter of national security.
7. Several independent teams of scientists have come forward suggesting a lab leak was the most likely source of outbreak. Every agency has stated that a lab leak can not be ruled out at this time.

Net, the circumstantial evidence of lab connection continues to firm.  The pressure by the public to release the data from the lab studies will continue to grow despite efforts to quash it.    The people deserve full transparency into the lab's operation.  Is it not suspicious that the lab refuses to release the data that would allegedly exonerate them?  Are we really to believe they have not compared their stored viruses to the outbreak one, especially given that that is there fundamental job?

Offline Morning Sunshine

  • Geese Smuggling Moonbat
  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 6531
  • Karma: 310
  • There are no mistakes, just Learning Experiences
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2020, 06:33:58 PM »
A Taiwanese scientist has claimed Chinese microbiologists probably created coronavirus in Wuhan, China.


I have said before I do not trust China.  But I also take anything said about China by the Taiwanese with a lot of distrust.  There is a lot of bad blood there, and it is in Taiwan's best interest to have China distrusted and a pariah on the world stage

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2020, 07:31:18 PM »

I have said before I do not trust China.  But I also take anything said about China by the Taiwanese with a lot of distrust.  There is a lot of bad blood there, and it is in Taiwan's best interest to have China distrusted and a pariah on the world stage

How about the Israeli, Indian, South Korean, etc scientists who have all put forward the same fact informed opinion?  And the vast majority of US scientists who said they will not rule it out despite all the media criticism?

Of course, in the end it doesn't matter who we trust/not.  The facts listed above are not debatable and they clearly point towards the lab.  There is zero evidence for any alternative hypothesis at this point. 

It is funny.  I remember when Chernobyl happened and we could clearly see the radioactive particles spread around the world.  Yet there were those who claimed for political reasons it wasnt coming from the reactor.  This has exactly the same feel.

Offline Mr. Bill

  • Like a hot cocoa mojito
  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 15285
  • Karma: 1876
  • Trained Attack Sheepdog/Troll hunter
    • Website Maintenance and Online Presence Management by Mr. Bill
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2020, 08:07:05 PM »
There are two separate theories here, and I think they're gettiong overlapped when they shouldn't be.  One theory is that the virus was released from the lab.  The other theory is that the virus was created at the lab (or at some other lab).

If the first is true, that doesn't prove the second.  I don't have a big problem believing that the lab could have released the virus through negligence.  There's no evidence for this yet, other than circumstantial, but there's no evidence against it either, and it's plausible.

But, separately, there are a whole lot of accusations that somebody genetically engineered this virus.  Who?  This is buried in prejudices and disinformation.  Maybe the Chinese were doing legit research, maybe they were designing a bioweapon, maybe the Americans engineered it to attach Chinese preferentially, maybe Bill Gates and George Soros did it to depopulate the planet.  I've heard all of these, but I've heard no reliable evidence that any of them are true.  The "proof" that the virus was engineered keeps evaporating under scrutiny, just like the "proof" that it passed through snakes or pangolins or fish.  People look at a nucleotide sequence or an amino acid sequence, and say "OMG! What are the chances of THAT happening randomly?" -- and in fact they don't understand the statistics and don't know the chances of it happening randomly, but they go ahead and post a preprint or make a claim at a conference based on "OMG" rather than statistics.

Not saying it didn't happen.  But until we get some real information -- which may never happen if the perpetrators succeed with covering it up -- I'm not willing to accept it as proven, or even likely.

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2020, 08:36:47 PM »
There are two separate theories here, and I think they're gettiong overlapped when they shouldn't be.  One theory is that the virus was released from the lab.  The other theory is that the virus was created at the lab (or at some other lab).

True.

But, separately, there are a whole lot of accusations that somebody genetically engineered this virus.  Who?  This is buried in prejudices and disinformation.

Not true, it isnt based on disinformation.  It is based on knowledge that the scientists at the lab in question DID modify naturally occuring bat Coronavirus so that it could infect humans.  It is incontrovertibly true.  We have the published studies like this:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985
A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence

Zhengli-Li Shi
Key Laboratory of Special Pathogens and Biosafety, Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Wuhan, China


Here we examine the disease potential of a SARS-like virus, SHC014-CoV, which is currently circulating in Chinese horseshoe bat populations1. Using the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system2, we generated and characterized a chimeric virus expressing the spike of bat coronavirus SHC014 in a mouse-adapted SARS-CoV backbone.
...
However, sequence data alone provides minimal insights to identify and prepare for future prepandemic viruses. Therefore, to examine the emergence potential (that is, the potential to infect humans) of circulating bat CoVs, we built a chimeric virus encoding a novel, zoonotic CoV spike protein—from the RsSHC014-CoV sequence that was isolated from Chinese horseshoe bats1—in the context of the SARS-CoV mouse-adapted backbone. The hybrid virus allowed us to evaluate the ability of the novel spike protein to cause disease independently of other necessary adaptive mutations in its natural backbone. Using this approach, we characterized CoV infection mediated by the SHC014 spike protein in primary human airway cells and in vivo, and tested the efficacy of available immune therapeutics against SHC014-CoV. Together, the strategy translates metagenomics data to help predict and prepare for future emergent viruses.


And we also know that there have been numerous incidents at the Wuhan lab and others.

There is also a third level is that this was developed as a bio-weapon.  That is the most speculative. But, again, it isnt just prejudice.  There is absolute evidence that China has a covert bio-weapon program.  So far there isnt evidence of this link like the other two levels.



Offline Mr. Bill

  • Like a hot cocoa mojito
  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 15285
  • Karma: 1876
  • Trained Attack Sheepdog/Troll hunter
    • Website Maintenance and Online Presence Management by Mr. Bill
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2020, 09:12:07 PM »
Okay, that's a long read and I'll have to study it tomorrow.  I believe they're saying that they made a modified bat coronavirus that could infect mice, not humans.  What further experiments they did after this one, I don't know.

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2020, 09:42:42 PM »
Okay, that's a long read and I'll have to study it tomorrow.  I believe they're saying that they made a modified bat coronavirus that could infect mice, not humans.  What further experiments they did after this one, I don't know.

They were human mouse replicants and human lung cultures (HAE).  HAE stands for Human Airway Epithelial cultures.  They effectively mimic the human bronchial environment to allow for cultivation of human respiratory viral pathogens such as coronavirus. The goal of the experiments using HAE is to determine propagation and identification of the viruses.

And they very well knew the dangers involved in it spreading to lab workers.

Human lungs for HAE cultures were procured under University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Institutional Review Board–approved protocols. HAE cultures represent highly differentiated human airway epithelium containing ciliated and non-ciliated epithelial cells as well as goblet cells. The cultures are also grown on an air-liquid interface for several weeks before use, as previously described26. Briefly, cells were washed with PBS and inoculated with virus or mock-diluted in PBS for 40 min at 37 °C. After inoculation, cells were washed three times and fresh medium was added to signify time '0'. Three or more biological replicates were harvested at each described time point. No blinding was used in any sample collections nor were samples randomized. All virus cultivation was performed in a biosafety level (BSL) 3 laboratory with redundant fans in the biosafety cabinets, as described previously by our group2. All personnel wore powered air purifying respirators (Breathe Easy, 3M) with Tyvek suits, aprons and booties and were double-gloved.

Their goal was to prove that bat coronaviruses could infect humans by direct evolution without going through other animal intermidiaries. 

Coronaviruses


They did this through direct genetic editing of the bat coronaviruses.  Needless to say, they suceeded brilliantly in creating such viruses.

Offline surfivor

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 7502
  • Karma: 116
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2020, 06:00:02 AM »
They were human mouse replicants and human lung cultures (HAE).  HAE stands for Human Airway Epithelial cultures.  They effectively mimic the human bronchial environment to allow for cultivation of human respiratory viral pathogens such as coronavirus. The goal of the experiments using HAE is to determine propagation and identification of the viruses.

And they very well knew the dangers involved in it spreading to lab workers.

Human lungs for HAE cultures were procured under University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Institutional Review Board–approved protocols. HAE cultures represent highly differentiated human airway epithelium containing ciliated and non-ciliated epithelial cells as well as goblet cells. The cultures are also grown on an air-liquid interface for several weeks before use, as previously described26. Briefly, cells were washed with PBS and inoculated with virus or mock-diluted in PBS for 40 min at 37 °C. After inoculation, cells were washed three times and fresh medium was added to signify time '0'. Three or more biological replicates were harvested at each described time point. No blinding was used in any sample collections nor were samples randomized. All virus cultivation was performed in a biosafety level (BSL) 3 laboratory with redundant fans in the biosafety cabinets, as described previously by our group2. All personnel wore powered air purifying respirators (Breathe Easy, 3M) with Tyvek suits, aprons and booties and were double-gloved.

Their goal was to prove that bat coronaviruses could infect humans by direct evolution without going through other animal intermidiaries. 

Coronaviruses


They did this through direct genetic editing of the bat coronaviruses.  Needless to say, they suceeded brilliantly in creating such viruses.

With regards to chapel hill in NC, I heard that a Chinese scientist was involved in work there and took the viruses developed at that college back to China. The college also was given money from China for the technology and assistance

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2020, 06:25:10 AM »
With regards to chapel hill in NC, I heard that a Chinese scientist was involved in work there and took the viruses developed at that college back to China. The college also was given money from China for the technology and assistance

The main chinese scientist involved is Zhengli Shi.  She is the number one expert on bat coronaviruses in the world.  Her team collects the bat viruses and maintains the bats at the Wuhan lab.  It is also her team that has had the published lab incidents.  She is also the one pushing the seafood market theory while sinultaneously holding back the info on the viruses.

She is a persona non grata throughout China.  She is nicknamed the "she-devil" by the people who vastly believe she is responsible for the outbreak.  She routinely calls the people of China barbarians and other derogatory terms. Her recent move to patent the treatments for coronavirus (that she herself didn't even create) so as to profit off the epidemic has really upset the people there.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 06:55:24 AM by iam4liberty »

Offline Mr. Bill

  • Like a hot cocoa mojito
  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 15285
  • Karma: 1876
  • Trained Attack Sheepdog/Troll hunter
    • Website Maintenance and Online Presence Management by Mr. Bill
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2020, 11:19:04 AM »
Still digesting this paper, and I'm sorry I didn't look at it sooner, because it's certainly relevant to the virus origin.

One central issue: Where did the lab work take place?  The paper has 15 authors.  12 are from the US, 2 from the Wuhan lab in China, and 1 from Switzerland.  The Wuhan authors are #9 and #14, so they weren't leading the study.  The work they did is listed at the end of the paper:

Quote
... X.-Y.G. performed pseudotyping experiments; ... Z.-L.S. provided SHC014 spike sequences and plasmids...

So what are "pseudotyping experiments"?  Wikipedia has a definition:

Quote
Pseudotyping is the process of producing viruses or viral vectors in combination with foreign viral envelope proteins. The result is a pseudotyped virus particle. With this method, the foreign viral envelope proteins can be used to alter host tropism or an increased/decreased stability of the virus particles. Pseudotyped particles do not carry the genetic material to produce additional viral envelope proteins, so the phenotypic changes cannot be passed on to progeny viral particles.

So this is a safety feature.  Instead of genetically engineering the virus, you build the virus with proteins that aren't in its genetic code.

What does this tell us?

  • For this specific paper from 2015, the Wuhan lab didn't produce genetically engineered viruses.  That work was done in the US.
  • But now we have an example of the sort of experiments that Wuhan researchers were participating in, so it's possible they did make genetically engineered viruses in more recent research.  (I haven't gone searching for more recent papers to see whether this is true.)

What else do we know from this paper?

  • The researchers demonstrated that at least this one coronavirus could evolve, without human intervention, into a strain capable of infecting humans.
  • The Chinese authorities must have thought there was no military significance to this research, otherwise they would never have allowed their researchers to participate in the publication of the paper.  So this pokes a hole in the "bioweapon" theory.

I may have more comments after I study the paper further.

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2020, 12:10:51 PM »

So what are "pseudotyping experiments"?  Wikipedia has a definition:

So this is a safety feature.  Instead of genetically engineering the virus, you build the virus with proteins that aren't in its genetic code.

What does this tell us?

  • For this specific paper from 2015, the Wuhan lab didn't produce genetically engineered viruses.  That work was done in the US.


Despite predictions from both structure-based modeling and pseudotyping experiments, SHC014-MA15 was viable and replicated to high titers in Vero cells (Supplementary Fig. 2b). Similarly to SARS, SHC014-MA15 also required a functional ACE2 molecule for entry and could use human, civet and bat ACE2 orthologs (Supplementary Fig. 2c,d). To test the ability of the SHC014 spike to mediate infection of the human airway, we examined the sensitivity of the human epithelial airway cell line Calu-3 2B4 (ref. 9) to infection and found robust SHC014-MA15 replication, comparable to that of SARS-CoV Urbani (Fig. 1c). To extend these findings, primary human airway epithelial (HAE) cultures were infected and showed robust replication of both viruses (Fig. 1d). Together, the data confirm the ability of viruses with the SHC014 spike to infect human airway cells and underscore the potential threat of cross-species transmission of SHC014-CoV.

Offline iam4liberty

  • Survival Veteran
  • ********
  • Posts: 5109
  • Karma: 362
  • New TSP Forum member
Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2020, 12:22:26 PM »

    • But now we have an example of the sort of experiments that Wuhan researchers were participating in, so it's possible they did make genetically engineered viruses in more recent research.  (I haven't gone searching for more recent papers to see whether this is true.)

    https://www.efreenews.com/a/the-mysterious-origin-of-the-wuhan-coronavirus-and-the-call-for-chinese-authorities-to-release-animal-sample-testing-data

    To their surprise, the chimeric virus (SHC014-MA15) can use SHC014 spike to bind to human ACE2 receptor and enter human cells. SHC014-MA15 can also cause disease in mice and cause death as well. Existing vaccines to SARS cannot protect animals from SHC014-MA15 infection. Therefore, these chimeric virus studies can lead to the generation of more pathogenic, more deadly CoV strains in mammalian models.

    Due to the U.S. government-mandated pause on the gain-of-function (GOF) studies, this international research did not proceed further at that time. However, there is no evidence that Shi’s group in China stopped any further study on the track of introducing GOF mutations on the CoV. And it is clear that Shi’s group already mastered the reverse-engineering technology that is sufficient to introduce mutation in current SARS-CoV or SARS-Like CoV to create mutant infectious coronavirus.

    Interestingly, Shi’s group published on bioRxiv on Jan. 23, 2020 that a new bat coronavirus that they detected in Yunnan, named Bat COv RaTG13, shares 96.2 percent overall genome sequence identity with 2019-nCoV. However, this virus was never mentioned or published in their research before. (
     
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.22.914952v1.full.pdf

    In the sequence information provided by them in the supplemental material and method section, 3 sequences are shared between the 2019-nCoV they collected and the RATG13 virus but not in any of the other SARS or Bat SARS-Like CoV families in the paper listed. The 3 sequences are located close to N terminus of the spike protein, they are GTNGTKR, NNKSWM, RSYLTPGD.


    Chimeric Virus: 
    A chimera virus is defined by the Center for Veterinary Biologics as a "new hybrid microorganism created by joining nucleic acid fragments from two or more different microorganisms in which each of at least two of the fragments contain essential genes necessary for replication." The term chimera already referred to an individual organism whose body contained cell populations from different zygotes or an organism that developed from portions of different embryos.[/list]
    « Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 12:47:11 PM by iam4liberty »

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #109 on: March 03, 2020, 07:53:03 PM »
    Chinese scientists at Nankai University confirm earlier findings of Indian scientists regarding the HIV like features.  This is consistant with the lab release hypothesis.  It will be interesting if they too are forced to retract..

    http://chinaxiv.org/abs/202002.00004
    Wuhan 2019 Coronavirus S protein may have Furin protease cleavage sites

    This mutation has the potential to enhance the efficiency of 2019-nCoV infecting cells, which in turn makes it significantly more aggressive than SARS coronavirus. Due to this mutation, the packaging mechanism of 2019 coronavirus will also be different from most other Beta coronaviruses such as SARS, and may be the same as the packaging mechanisms of murine hepatitis coronavirus, HIV, Ebola virus and some avian influenza viruses

    Offline Mr. Bill

    • Like a hot cocoa mojito
    • Administrator
    • Ultimate Survival Veteran
    • *******
    • Posts: 15285
    • Karma: 1876
    • Trained Attack Sheepdog/Troll hunter
      • Website Maintenance and Online Presence Management by Mr. Bill
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #110 on: March 03, 2020, 08:18:56 PM »
    This is consistant with the lab release hypothesis.

    That's not what they say in the abstract.  Here's Google Translate's version of the whole thing:

    Quote
    Abstract: In December 2019, Wuhan, China reported pneumonia caused by the 2019 novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV). Based on genomic information, our previous results showed that although 2019-nCoV and SARS coronavirus both belong to the Beta Coronavirus B subgroup (BB coronavirus), the two viruses are very different, and this result is consistent with the clinical symptoms of the two. Previous studies have also found that BB coronaviruses have a large number of variable translations, and revealed the characteristics of BB coronaviruses that mutate quickly and have high diversity at the molecular level. An important mutation in the BB coronavirus S protein was reported for the first time in this study. This mutation provided 2019-nCoV with a site for Furin protease cleavage, which is all other BB coronavirus except mouse hepatitis coronavirus (Including SARS and SARS-like coronavirus). This mutation has the potential to enhance the efficiency of 2019-nCoV infecting cells, which in turn makes it significantly more aggressive than SARS coronavirus. Due to this mutation, the packaging mechanism of 2019 coronavirus will also be different from most other Beta coronaviruses such as SARS, and may be the same as the packaging mechanisms of murine hepatitis coronavirus, HIV, Ebola virus and some avian influenza viruses. As an unexpected discovery, some avian influenza viruses can also obtain Furin protease cleavage sites through mutations. Subsequent research on this important mutation will lay the foundation for revealing the reasons for the strong transmission of 2019-nCoV, as well as for the development of drugs, antibodies and vaccines.

    They're saying it's a mutation, consistent with the high mutation rate of other BB coronaviruses.

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #111 on: March 03, 2020, 08:44:11 PM »
    That's not what they say in the abstract.  Here's Google Translate's version of the whole thing:

    They're saying it's a mutation, consistent with the high mutation rate of other BB coronaviruses.

    I posted it above.  That is the translation.  It is 100% in alignment with Indian scientist findings.  Exactly same finding which was criticized.  It wasnt an experimental error as promoted by media.  It is real.

    Actually high mutation rates are a limiting factor on viruses.  They lead to high extinction rates in the wild.  Labs  actually work to keep certain strains alive by eliminating competition.  And these are specifically the ones of interest to the Wuhan lab.

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #112 on: March 04, 2020, 08:33:52 AM »
    As international teams of scientists zero in on Wuhan lab, China's communist spokesperson denies disease originated in China.  Looks like they are gearing up to go with the foreign bioweapon conspiracy angle.

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/04/c_138843709.htm
    Calling novel coronavirus "China virus" extremely irresponsible: FM spokesperson

    Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Zhao Lijian on Wednesday slammed some media organizations that had called the novel coronavirus "China virus," saying the wording was "extremely irresponsible."
    ...
    He also quoted renowned respiratory expert Zhong Nanshan as saying that the epidemic first appeared in China but did not necessarily originate from China.

    "What we should oppose is 'information virus' or 'political virus'," Zhao said, adding that those media organizations' ill intentions to use the "China virus" phrase were to have China blamed for having created the epidemic.


    Here is video with full statement where he says that it is of unknown origin:

    https://twitter.com/MFA_China/status/1235160704677642240

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #113 on: March 04, 2020, 05:56:52 PM »
    China's top bioweapons general and her team reportedly injected themselves with untested Covid-19 vaccine to prove loyalty to PLA and to redeem Wuhan lab believed to have leaked virus.  I bet there will be a lot fewer leaks under a "you leak, you test" policy.

    https://amp.ibtimes.sg/who-chen-wei-top-chinese-epidemiologist-wuhan-lab-injects-untested-coronavirus-vaccine-prove-40468
    Top Chinese epidemiologist from Wuhan lab injects untested coronavirus vaccine to prove loyalty to PLA

    Chen Wei, a leading Chinese epidemiologist and a major-general in China's People's Liberation Army, has created quite a stir on Weibo by her radical approach.

    Major General Wei it is reported that injected herself and her six-member team with an untested coronavirus vaccine, which many on the Internet see as a move to prove loyalty to the People's Liberation Army.
    ...
    Chen's team has achieved key progress in developing a vaccine to the novel coronavirus, the report said.
    ...
    PLA officials later deleted the images from Weibo after it emerged that the vaccine was not even tested on animals but was directly injected on the researchers without a trial.

    Besides wanting to prove loyalty to PLA and show to the world how confident China is about the vaccine, there are other theories on why Major General Wei injected the vaccine without trial.

    There have been speculations since the beginning of the coronavirus outbreak that the COVID 19 was a bioengineered strain or a man-made virus that had escaped out of the Wuhan lab.

    And it was in this same lab Major General Wei was dispatched one month back to redeem the country.




    « Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 06:23:00 PM by iam4liberty »

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #114 on: March 05, 2020, 05:55:13 AM »
    LOL.  They are threading the needle.  We aren't saying it happened in Wuhan (please China, let our reporters back in) but we really have to stop these accidents from continuing to happen...

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-epidemic-draws-scrutiny-to-labs-handling-deadly-pathogens-11583349777
    Coronavirus Epidemic Draws Scrutiny to Labs Handling Deadly Pathogens
    Risk of accidents or terrorism grows as more countries handle exotic microbes, say biosafety experts


    But biosafety experts agree that as more countries handle deadly and exotic microbes at containment labs like the one in Wuhan, risks of accidents or terrorism are growing. In a rush to open labs that scientists say can appear motivated by national pride, governments on every major continent now handle dangerous pathogens that were once confined to a handful of institutions like the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    “The release of pathogenic microorganisms from high-containment laboratories, such as the pandemic CoV-19, seems more likely in countries without current, historically solidified standards or legislation,” says Thomas Binz, who leads biosafety efforts at Switzerland’s Federal Office of Public Health.
    ...
    Despite careful protocols, accidents happen. The CDC says that in 2014, tubes being used in a study of live Ebola virus in its Atlanta BSL-4 facility got mixed up and the wrong ones were mistakenly transferred to a less secure lab, though no one got sick.
    « Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 06:03:15 AM by iam4liberty »

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #115 on: March 05, 2020, 06:48:34 AM »
    Good summary of timing.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200224100237/https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200224/Coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-Chinas-highest-biosafety-lab-next-door-to-market.aspx
    Coronavirus may have leaked from China's highest biosafety lab next door to market

    Now, a team of scientists from Xishuangbanna Tropical Botanical Garden of Chinese Academy of Sciences, South China Agricultural University, and Chinese Institute for Brain Research wrote in a paper published on ChinaXiv, about an alternative source of the coronavirus that is currently spreading across the globe.

    The scientists say they have found genomic evidence that the seafood market is not the actual source of the outbreak. Instead, they point the source of the virus outbreak to a laboratory that studies potent viruses.

    The Wuhan Virology Institute, which is just a few yards away from the seafood market, researches some of the world's most dangerous pathogens. It is China's first Biosafety Level 4 laboratory, the highest security level needed to isolate dangerous biological agents in an enclosed facility.

    The team also found that while the virus had spread in the seafood market in Wuhan, there had also been two major population expansions, dated Dec. 8 and Jan. 6. Further, scientists believe that the virus originated outside the market, but the crowded market had boosted the circulation of the coronavirus, spreading it to the whole city by December 2019.

    The first case manifesting symptoms emerged on Dec. 8, and most of the following cases were linked to the seafood market. On Jan. 1, the seafood market was closed, but the virus had already spread in the city, suggesting that the outbreak has started through human-to-human transmission by late November.

    Warning about the new virus
    “The study concerning whether the Huanan market is the only birthplace of SARS-CoV-2 is of great significance for finding its source and determining the intermediate host to control the epidemic and prevent it from spreading again,” the researchers said.

    The researchers also said that while at the beginning of the outbreak in Hubei province and neighboring areas, China’s National Center for Disease Control and Prevention issued a level 2 emergency warning about the new outbreak on Jan. 6, the information was not widely shared. The team said if warning received more attention, the number of cases in China, and across the globe would have been reduced.

    The government has locked down Wuhan city on Jan. 23, which is weeks after the outbreak has been reported. Before the residents were barred from leaving the city in fear of spreading the virus, millions have already left.

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #116 on: March 06, 2020, 03:47:03 PM »
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-chernobyl-communism-reason-coronavirus-so-dangerous-119066
    China's Chernobyl? Communism Is the Reason Coronavirus Is So Dangerous
    China’s communist system requires sycophancy, opaqueness, and an absence of information. Combatting coronavirus requires the opposite.


    Yet other parts of the epidemic are of the Chinese government’s own making. As we recently wrotein the Wall Street Journal, wartime censorship in the US and allied countries, one hundred years ago, played a major role in turning the misnamed “Spanish flu” into a worldwide pandemic that left an estimated 50 million dead around the world, including 700,000 in the US. If the coronavirus turns into a catastrophe suppression of the early bad news as part of the Communist regime’s efforts to control information will deserve much of the blame. The one-party state and cult of personality around Xi Jinping make the government, and Xi personally, not only responsible for all successes, but all failures as well. Coronavirus risks displaying government incompetence and dishonesty, and thus incentivizes the regime to cover up the scale of the crisis. With its people and the media already muzzled, there is no counterweight to hold the government to account.
    ...
    In a kind of self‑parody, the governor of Hubei where Wuhan is located misspoke twice about the province’s annual mask production capacity. First saying it was 10.8 billion, then correcting himself to say 1.8 billion. Finally admitting it was only 1.08 million, or less than 10 percent of Wuhan’s population. He’s become a symbol of incompetence and the public is furious. 

    The fact that Wuhan is home to China’s advanced virus research laboratory known as the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which does some classified work for the Chinese military, has predictably generated speculation that the novel Corona virus might have somehow leaked out of that institute.

    Were that in fact the case, it would recall the experience of the 1979 anthrax outbreak in Sverdlovsk, in the Soviet Union, when anthrax spores leaked from a Soviet biological weapons facility, killing at least 64 people. Soviet authorities covered up the incident until 1992 when Boris Yeltsin, as President of Russia and former Party boss of Sverdlovsk, acknowledged the truth about the outbreak. A team of Western scientists, headed by Harvard’s Matthew Meselson, who in 1986 had initially endorsed the official line, were then allowed to interview affected families and health workers. They concluded that the dispersal of the anthrax spores resulted from the failure to replacea filter on an exhaust at the facility. Had the wind blown in a different direction, hundreds of thousands could have been exposed to the pathogen. In such circumstances, the reluctance of authorities to acknowledge the truth become even stronger, but so does the need for transparency to deal with the outbreak.
    ...
    China’s communist system requires sycophancy, opaqueness, and an absence of information. Combatting coronavirus requires the opposite. The Chinese communist system may have made the coronavirus a far greater tragedy than it should have been.

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #117 on: March 06, 2020, 04:24:00 PM »
    Chinese lab which went against authorities to release covid-19 sequence to world scientists in race for treatment closed without explanation.  Sequence released was also the one which traced origin to Wuhan Virology lab supporting lab release theory.

    http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article52232
    Chinese laboratory that first shared coronavirus genome with world ordered to close for ‘rectification’, hindering its Covid-19 research

    No reason was given for the closure of Shanghai facility, which released information about the virus ahead of authorities

    • One source at the laboratory said the closure has hampered scientists’ research when they should be ‘racing against the clock’

    The Shanghai laboratory where researchers published the world’s first genome sequence of the deadly coronavirus that causes Covid-19 has been shut down.

    The laboratory at the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre was ordered to close for “rectification” on January 12, a day after Professor Zhang Yongzhen’s team published the genome sequence on open platforms. It closed temporarily the following day.

    The release of the data helped researchers develop test kits for the virus.
    “The centre was not given any specific reasons why the laboratory was closed for rectification. [We have submitted] four reports [asking for permission] to reopen but we have not received any replies,” a source with the centre said, requesting anonymity because of the matter’s sensitivity.

    “The closure has greatly affected the scientists and their research when they should be racing against the clock to find the means to help put the novel coronavirus outbreak under control,” the source said.

    The laboratory is a Level 3 biosafety facility, the second highest level, and passed an annual inspection by the China National Accreditation Service for Conformity Assessment on January 5. It also obtained the required credentials to conduct research on the coronavirus on January 24.

    It was not clear whether the closure was related to the publishing of the sequencing data before the authorities.

    The closure order was issued by the Shanghai Health Commission. Five telephone calls to officials at the commission seeking comment on the closure were not picked up. A fax sent to the commission requesting comment was not answered.
    ...
    The lab’s closure not only affected Zhang’s research but also studies by other scientists since it is an open facility, according to another researcher with knowledge of the matter.

    “There have been applications from research institutes and universities to try drugs and compare the effects of different treatment and the development of vaccines, but [all these will have] to be turned down. Closing down the laboratory also affects the studying of the virus,” the researcher said.
    « Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 04:46:23 PM by iam4liberty »

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #118 on: March 06, 2020, 08:19:29 PM »
    https://youtu.be/0b5vAHEmneY
    [Coronavirus Special] "Systematic Problems with China's Virus Research Labs" - Tim Trevan

    As the world sees the number of infections of the #Wuhan #virus skyrocket, I interviewed #TimTrevan , founder of CHROME Biosafety and Biosecurity Consulting. He focuses on management aspects of designing and implementing a culture of safety in organizations whose work involves biological risks. We touched on his assessment of the Wuhan virus outbreak, how it compares to the SARS epidemic and the Spanish flu, and more importantly, the underlying systematic problems with #China's virus research labs.

    Offline iam4liberty

    • Survival Veteran
    • ********
    • Posts: 5109
    • Karma: 362
    • New TSP Forum member
    Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
    « Reply #119 on: March 07, 2020, 10:39:47 AM »
    Under the massively growing evidence of the Wuhan lab release, the communist government is getting desperate to deflect.attention elsewhere via their controlled social media.  They are basically admitting virus matches that in lab but are saying it was released by US partners, not them, and that American government covered up the US cases by classifying them as common flu.  It was only the "transparent" Chinese government which released the truth that it was a new virus.  LOL.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/conspiracy-theorists-blame-the-us-for-coronavirus-china-is-happy-to-encourage-them/2020/03/05/50875458-5dc8-11ea-ac50-18701e14e06d_story.html
    Conspiracy theorists blame U.S. for coronavirus. China is happy to encourage them.

    The United States is concealing the true scale of its coronavirus deaths. The United States should learn from China about how to respond to an epidemic. The United States was the origin of the coronavirus — and the global crisis was never China's fault.

    Welcome to the Chinese Internet this week.
    ...
    In recent days, run-of-the-mill mockery of the White House has taken a darker turn as the Chinese Internet became inundated by the theory, subtly stoked by the Chinese government, that the coronavirus originated in the United States. The U.S. government, one version of the theory goes, has been covering up mounting cases, and perhaps thousands of deaths, by classifying them as regular flu.
    ...
    “Go on WeChat, go on Weibo, look on Baidu search, and it’s full of ‘look at all the other countries getting sick,’ or ‘the virus came from the United States,’ or all different levels of conspiracy theories,” said Xiao Qiang, an adjunct professor at the University of California at Berkeley’s School of Information who studies China’s Internet.
    ...
    Xiao said it was no coincidence that social media — the source of news for most Chinese — was awash in anti-American discourse precisely at a moment when the image of the Communist Party and its leader Xi Jinping has been badly dented after Chinese officials were found to be covering up early information about the outbreak.