Author Topic: Virus accidentally released from lab ?  (Read 20790 times)

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2020, 08:49:46 AM »
Following directive to improve anti-leak protocol compliance, the director of the lab in question has just been replaced with China's top biowarfare expert.  Obviously this has raised eyebrows giving confirmation that it is at "the epicentre" of the outbreak battle and fueling wild speculation that the army may have been conducting research there earlier.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8003713/China-appoints-military-bio-weapon-expert-secretive-virus-lab-Wuhan.html
China 'appoints its top military bio-warfare expert to take over secretive virus lab in Wuhan'

China has reportedly appointed its top military biological weapon expert to take over a secretive virus laboratory in Wuhan after the outbreak of a new coronavirus,
....
Chen Wei, a Major General of the People's Liberation Army, was flown in to Wuhan by the central government late last month before officially taking the helm of Wuhan Institute of Virology, according to a report.

The 54-year-old's designation prompted some people to speculate that the epidemic could have been spawned in the little-known lab
...
Chen and her team were already developing a quicker way to screen the COVID-19 coronavirus from a tent in the epicenter on January 30, according to an official report from China. 

Chen, also a leading specialist in genetic engineering vaccines in China, developed a medical spray during the SARS outbreak in 2003. The product prevented around 14,000 medical workers from contracting the virus, said another state-media report.

She is also known in the country as the 'terminator of Ebola' for leading a team to create a vaccine against the fatal virus.

Speaking of fighting the novel coronavirus, Chen said: 'The epidemic is like a military situation. The epicentre equals to the battlefield.' 


Offline surfivor

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2020, 09:53:12 AM »


 Paul Cottrell, Harvard University PHD in Biology says based on the genetic structure of the virus and his analysis, the probability that it came from nature is very low.

 He also says they will want to push RNA vaccines now which have never been used and the safety of which is completely unknown

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/american-conservative-university-podcast/e/67375058

Offline surfivor

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2020, 09:56:38 AM »
HIV, Ebola, and Marburg are infectious diseases that arose in Africa after viruses circulating in zoonotic reservoirs evolved sufficiently to infect humans. Bushmeat and bats played pivotal roles in the evolution and transfer of those viral diseases, too.

 The explanation of how AIDS made it to humans is very dubious. It seems more likely it came from Polio vaccines made from monkey kidneys.

 The situation in Africa has always been very deceptive because anyone sick of malnutrition gets classified as having AIDS so they can boost the numbers and get funding for drugs but they never actually test people for AIDS because according to them it's too expensive.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2020, 12:52:27 PM »
Interesting side story.  The US government recently arrested Charles Lieber, Harvard biochemistry professor, for setting up a secret lab at China's Wuhan University of Technology.  He allegedly lied (not only failed to disclose but actively covered up) on US DOD military projects paperwork that he was being paid $50,000 a month and $150,000 bonus a year by the Chinese government through their Thousand Talents Plan.  The TTP. has been declared a US national security risk as China has used it to steal high level military secrets.  Harvard claims they had no idea he was moonlighting let alone setting up a parallel lab in Wuhan.  It further suggests that despite China's claims otherwise, some research at Wuhan institutes have a covert military purpose. It also suggests that China has a means to secretly influence major US universities through their staff.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/28/800442646/acclaimed-harvard-scientist-is-arrested-accused-of-lying-about-ties-to-china
Acclaimed Harvard Scientist Is Arrested, Accused Of Lying About Ties To China

The arrangement between Lieber and the Chinese institution spanned "significant" periods of time between at least 2012 and 2017, according to the affidavit. It says the deal called for Lieber to be paid up to $50,000 a month, in addition to $150,000 per year "for living and personal expenses."

"Lieber was also awarded more than $1.5 million by WUT and the Chinese government to establish a research lab and conduct research at WUT," the document states.

For a large part of the time frame in question, Lieber was also the principal investigator on at least six U.S. Defense Department research grants, with a cumulative value of more than $8 million, according to the affidavit. It also says he was the principal investigator on more than $10 million in grants funded by the National Institutes of Health.

"These grants require the disclosure of significant foreign financial conflicts of interest, including financial support from foreign governments or foreign entities," the U.S. Attorney's Office in Massachusetts said in a statement announcing the charges against Lieber.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 01:01:23 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2020, 01:21:12 PM »
Charles Lieber, Harvard biochemistry professor

Minor correction: it's chemistry, not biochemistry.  Here's his CV:

http://cml.harvard.edu/assets/CML_CV_11Feb2020.pdf

Quote
Professional Experience
1987-1990: Assistant Professor of Chemistry, Columbia University
1990-1991: Associate Professor of Chemistry, Columbia University
1991-1999: Professor of Chemistry, Harvard University
1999-2017: Mark Hyman Professor of Chemistry, Harvard University
2015-present: Chair, Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, Harvard University
2017-present: Joshua and Beth Friedman University Professor, Harvard University

...

Research Interests
Chemistry and physics of materials with an emphasis on rational synthesis, hierarchical assembly and fundamental physical properties of nanoscale wires; nano-bioelectronics with a focus on real-time, ultra-sensitive detectors, revolutionary tools for single cell measurements, and three-dimensional innervation of synthetic tissue and organs; brain science with an emphasis on development of the new syringe-injectable electronics paradigm for long-term mapping and modulation of neural activity in live animals, studies of fundamental problems in neuroscience, including memory, learning and cognition, and the development of implants for the treatment of disease.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2020, 03:04:57 PM »
Minor correction: it's chemistry, not biochemistry.  Here's his CV:

http://cml.harvard.edu/assets/CML_CV_11Feb2020.pdf

Harvard University listing which aligns with all the news reports:

https://chemistry.harvard.edu/people/charles-lieber
He moved to Harvard University in 1991 and now holds a joint appointment in the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, as the Joshua and Beth Friedman University Professor, and the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences.

Here is their description:

https://chembiophd.hms.harvard.edu/

Chemical biology is a rapidly growing field that combines the rigor and quantitative aspects of traditional chemistry and biochemistry programs with the excitement and medical relevance of modern molecular, cellular, organismic, and human biology. We believe that many biological problems demand molecular and quantitative answers that can only be supplied by tools and approaches derived from chemistry — such as single-molecule measurements, single-cell imaging, and the use of exogenous molecules to modulate the activity of cellular components. The integration of chemistry, biology, and medicine has become an integral and essential aspect of the training and research culture at Harvard, and this spirit is embodied in the Chemical Biology Program.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 03:10:12 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2020, 03:44:43 PM »
Department of Justice reports one of Lieber's assistent "students" was arrested as he tried to flee the US with "vials of biological research".The other assistant "student" was found to be a Lieutenant in the People's Liberation Army and Communist Party.  Definitely nothing to see here because conspiracies never happen.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related
Harvard University Professor and Two Chinese Nationals Charged in Three Separate China Related Cases

Zaosong Zheng
It is alleged that on Dec. 9, 2019, Zheng stole 21 vials of biological research and attempted to smuggle them out of the United States aboard a flight destined for China.  Federal officers at Logan Airport discovered the vials hidden in a sock inside one of Zheng’s bags, and not properly packaged.  It is alleged that initially, Zheng lied to officers about the contents of his luggage, but later admitted he had stolen the vials from a lab at Beth Israel.  Zheng stated that he intended to bring the vials to China to use them to conduct research in his own laboratory and publish the results under his own name.

Yanqing Ye
According to the indictment, Ye is a Lieutenant of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), the armed forces of the People’s Republic of China and member of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).  On her J-1 visa application, Ye falsely identified herself as a “student” and lied about her ongoing military service at the National University of Defense Technology (NUDT), a top military academy directed by the CCP.  It is further alleged that while studying at Boston University’s (BU) Department of Physics, Chemistry and Biomedical Engineering from October 2017 to April 2019, Ye continued to work as a PLA Lieutenant completing numerous assignments from PLA officers such as conducting research, assessing U.S. military websites and sending U.S. documents and information to China.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 03:52:13 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2020, 04:17:25 PM »
Airang News, the official news channel in South Korea, released a story on this:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZC0gww2yznI&feature=youtu.be

Their overall coverage of the virus is pretty amazing. A LOT of footage of what is happening in Wuhan and coverage of missing scientists, etc.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 04:23:22 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2020, 08:41:59 PM »
https://chemistry.harvard.edu/people/charles-lieber
He moved to Harvard University in 1991 and now holds a joint appointment in the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology, as the Joshua and Beth Friedman University Professor, and the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences.

Here is their description:

https://chembiophd.hms.harvard.edu/

Yes, I saw that.  Lieber is in a department that does both chemistry and chemical biology.  Lieber himself is a chemistry professor and does lots of nanoscale engineering stuff with applications in biology.  He is not a biochemist.  He is definitely not a virus researcher.

Department of Justice reports one of Lieber's assistent "students" was arrested as he tried to flee the US with "vials of biological research".The other assistant "student" was found to be a Lieutenant in the People's Liberation Army and Communist Party.  Definitely nothing to see here because conspiracies never happen.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related

The Dept of Justice news release does not say that Zheng and Ye were students of Lieber.  Lieber was at Harvard, Zheng was at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (although he was sponsored by Harvard), and Ye was at Boston University.

Lieber, Zheng, and Ye may be guilty of serious crimes, but at the moment there is no link between them and coronavirus.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2020, 01:51:17 AM »
Yes, I saw that.  Lieber is in a department that does both chemistry and chemical biology.  Lieber himself is a chemistry professor and does lots of nanoscale engineering stuff with applications in biology.  He is not a biochemist.  He is definitely not a virus researcher.

The Dept of Justice news release does not say that Zheng and Ye were students of Lieber.  Lieber was at Harvard, Zheng was at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (although he was sponsored by Harvard), and Ye was at Boston University.

Lieber, Zheng, and Ye may be guilty of serious crimes, but at the moment there is no link between them and coronavirus.

Probably there are inadequate controls for bio weapon research and I don’t think bio weapons should be developed because there is a possibility of escape from labs.

If it wasn’t for the coronavirus event we probably would never have heard of these students stealing virus material. In today’s world, people are probably more worried about being labeled as racist than to call on controls to prevent trafficking of bio material by Chinese students.

 If there is a risk of escape from labs then something should be done about it but I don’t have the impression that anything at all is done about it. I don’t hear many scientists calling for stricter controls or an end to bio weapons research. They probably are biased as well, they don’t want it to come out that it could have escaped from a lab so they are trying to claim it couldn’t have happened that it came from a lab
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 02:04:07 AM by surfivor »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2020, 11:58:22 AM »
Yes, I saw that.  Lieber is in a department that does both chemistry and chemical biology.  Lieber himself is a chemistry professor and does lots of nanoscale engineering stuff with applications in biology.  He is not a biochemist.  He is definitely not a virus researcher.

I never said he was a virus researcher.   He wasnt just "in" the department he was over all of it - "Chair of Harvard University’s Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department".  That is Harvard's school offering biochemistry discipline (along with microbiology).  His work is in biochemistry and he publishes regularly in the biochemistry journals.  Example:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.biochem.8b00122


Tissue-like Neural Probes for Understanding and Modulating the Brain
Guosong Hong, Robert D. Viveros, Theodore J. Zwang, Xiao Yang and Charles M. Lieber

So how is he not a biochemist?

The Dept of Justice news release does not say that Zheng and Ye were students of Lieber.  Lieber was at Harvard, Zheng was at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (although he was sponsored by Harvard), and Ye was at Boston University.

Lieber, Zheng, and Ye may be guilty of serious crimes, but at the moment there is no link between them and coronavirus.

The DOJ report does not say it explicitely but others have reported that sponsoring these research scholars/students (including vouching for J-1;visas) was part of his contract with the Wuhan University.  Zaosong Zheng was allegedly explicitely sponsored by him via Harvard exchange program.  But page is down now and appears not to be archived:

https://connects.catalyst.harvard.edu/Profiles/display/Person/173304

Newspaper articles say Harvard cancelled these arrangements.

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/12/31/zaosong-zheng-china-cancer-research-smuggling-charge-boston-beth-israel-deaconess-medical-center/
Medical Student Charged With Trying To Smuggle Cancer Research From Boston To China

Harvard officials told The Boston Globe that Zheng’s educational exchange visa had been revoked.

Beth Israel, a Harvard-affiliated teaching hospital, has fired Zheng and is cooperating with authorities, a spokeswoman said.


Note, he wasnt a medical student but rather an exchange scholar under that program.  Harvard's newspaper corrected that but some press still continues the misnomer.

It isnt clear about Ye.  She too was in the boston biochemistry network. The FBI has released wanted posters but hasnt given much details including the names of the scientists she targetted (other than the Boston connection) but many are speculating that Lieber was involved too.  It is expected she is back in China.  Some reporters are currently investigating if Ye and Zheng worked in his lab in China. 

I also  never said there was a link to coronavirus.  But rather that this solidifies three points:

1. Chinese government has cultivated great influence in US Universities and Labs. 
2. There is definitely a lab leakage issue.  A person stole 21 vials of bioligical research specimens and tried to smuggle them unprotected via commercial air travel.
3. There is a definitely a connection betwen Wuhan Universities and labs and the Chinese military via the TTP.

Which makes clear that theories on coronavirus lab origin should not be dismissed out of hand.  On top of this we now have stories of scientists sellling animals used for experiments into the meat markets.  So we now have a possibility where both a leak and market connection seems plausible.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 12:05:09 PM by iam4liberty »

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2020, 12:38:38 PM »
What’s more likely to expose a large number of people to an enzootic pathogen, a lab or a public meat market dealing in exotic live animals of dubious provenance and legality?


Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2020, 01:09:12 PM »
What’s more likely to expose a large number of people to an enzootic pathogen, a lab or a public meat market dealing in exotic live animals of dubious provenance and legality?

A lab with confirmed 600 infected bats and history of incidents or a meat market with no confirmed infected animals?  I will take the lab any day.  Especially given the number of early cases with no connection to the market.

However, a new report from a group of Chinese scientists published in the medical journal The Lancet on Friday challenges that idea, suggesting that the virus could have originated elsewhere before entering the Huanan Wholesale Seafood Market.

Looking in detail at the cases of the first 41 people hospitalized with the coronavirus, the scientists found that 13 cases had no link to the marketplace, including the first case of the virus on December 1, Science magazine reported.

"That's a big number, 13, with no link," Daniel Lucey, an infectious-diseases specialist at Georgetown University, told Science.

Lucey told the magazine it was possible that the first cases occurred in November and that the virus could have spread undetected among people before it was found in the first group of cases from the wet market.


Lancet article with details:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30183-5/fulltext
Clinical features of patients infected with 2019 novel coronavirus in Wuhan, China

But I may be bias having seen lab accidents firsthand.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2020, 03:38:45 PM »
What’s trustworthy about a market processing thousands of illegal wild animals from around the world everyday?  I’d trust just about any lab, short of the narco kind, over a market that is breaking health and wildlife trafficking laws every day, and probably with the tacit approval of the authorities. 

My money is on the meat market or similar livestock/wildlife mixing point, likely upwards of 75% probability in my opinion.  Lab accident is probably no more than 10%, less than 1% chance of deliberate bioweapon release, and the balance to who knows what else.

Offline David in MN

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2020, 03:43:23 PM »
How about a compromise  'what fool puts a hazmat lab down the road from an exotic species market?'

We'll probably never know the truth but it sure looks like there's enough blame to go around. I've even read conflicting timelines so maybe the government there (maybe) found the disease and sat on it. That fits either narrative. And given that we've seen evidence the both the lab had safety issues and the market had no standards they could both be to blame.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2020, 03:54:06 PM »
Well, we know from the SARS experience that it was a professor, Dr. Liu Jianlun, who was the "super-spreader" in the 2003 outbreak. 

https://amp.scmp.com/article/438097/patient-zero-believed-he-did-not-have-sars-inquiry-told
'Patient zero' believed he did not have Sars, inquiry told

A Guangdong professor at the centre of the global spread of Sars told Hong Kong doctors in February he was not suffering from the atypical pneumonia that was making hundreds of people sick in southern China at the time, a Legco hearing heard yesterday.

'Patient zero' believed he did not have Sars, inquiry told
Published: 12:00am, 14 Dec, 2003

A Guangdong professor at the centre of the global spread of Sars told Hong Kong doctors in February he was not suffering from the atypical pneumonia that was making hundreds of people sick in southern China at the time, a Legco hearing heard yesterday.

On the first day of the select committee inquiry on the handling of the Sars outbreak that killed 299 people in Hong Kong, Kwong Wah Hospital doctors and nurses were asked to account for the management of so-called 'patient zero', Liu Jianlun.Liu infected at least 13 tourists staying at the Metropole Hotel in Mongkok.

Globally, the outbreak eventually claimed the lives of 774 of the 8,098 who fell ill.Yesterday's five-hour hearing did not produce any controversy, as was widely anticipated. Instead, hospital staff were praised for their handling of Liu's case.


And 3 out of 4 later cases resulted from lab accidents.  Not a great record.  That is why US scientists were against the Wuhan lab and predicted escapes would happen.  How can it not with the continuos breaks of protocol?

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2020, 05:42:06 PM »
For those who don't know the story of SARS spread, the epidemic is believed to have started when a Professor in China became infected when investigating it at a hospital. Allegedly he feared the Chinese health system so he traveled to Hong Kong under story of going to a wedding to arrive at the region's best hospital.  In the process he infected dozens if not hundreds of people.  Here is an article summarizing the case:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/an-uncommon-cold-113445.html
An uncommon cold

This is why Hong Kong was so desparate to close off travel from China mainland at start of the recent outbreak.  Once bitten, twice shy.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2020, 06:23:34 PM »
More background on one of several SARS lab accidents.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-analysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137
SARS escaped Beijing lab twice
Laboratory safety at the Chinese Institute of Virology under close scrutiny


The latest outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in China, with eight confirmed or suspected cases so far and hundreds quarantined, involves two researchers who were working with the virus in a Beijing research lab, the World Health Organization (WHO) said on Monday (April 26).

“We suspect two people, a 26-year-old female postgraduate student and a 31-year-old male postdoc, were both infected, apparently in two separate incidents,” Bob Dietz, WHO spokesman in Beijing, told The Scientist.

The woman was admitted to hospital on April 4, but the man apparently became infected independently 2 weeks later, being hospitalized on April 17. Both worked at the Chinese Institute of Virology in Beijing, part of China's Center for Disease Control.
...
China has level three research guidelines and rules in place for handling the SARS virus, which are “of acceptable quality” to WHO, Dietz told The Scientist. But “it's a question of procedures and equipment. Frankly we are going to go in now a take a very close look,” he said.
...
Antoine Danchin, an epidemiologist with the Hong Kong University–Pasteur Research Center, who studied the SARS epidemic in Hong Kong, told The Scientist the latest incidents were probably the result of lab accidents.

“Normally, it's not possible to contaminate people even under level two confinement, if the security rules are obeyed, with the appropriate hoods, and so on,” Danchin said. SARS work requires level three. “So it suggests there has been some mishandling of something.”

“The lab might have all the right rules, but the people may not comply! For example, notebooks are not supposed to be taken out, a lot of things like that. A virus doesn't jump on people!” Danchin said.

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2020, 10:37:04 PM »
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/scientists-strongly-condemn-rumors-and-conspiracy-theories-about-origin-coronavirus

Quote
The authors of The Lancet statement note that scientists from several countries who have studied SARS-CoV-2 “overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife,” just like many other viruses that have recently emerged in humans. “Conspiracy theories do nothing but create fear, rumours, and prejudice that jeopardise our global collaboration in the fight against this virus,” the statement says.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2020, 02:51:29 AM »
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/scientists-strongly-condemn-rumors-and-conspiracy-theories-about-origin-coronavirus

Boy, what a silly article of strawmen.  Of course it originated in wildlife, bats specifically.  That isn't the question.  The question is what is the source of this epidemic from the wildlife?  Was it from wild anteaters brought to the meat market, was it wild bats brought to the lab, or something else?

The earliest documented cases had no connection to the meat market whatsoever.  Which strongly suggests that the market related cases came from people not animals.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/wuhan-seafood-market-may-not-be-source-novel-virus-spreading-globally
Wuhan seafood market may not be source of novel virus spreading globally

Lucey says if the new data are accurate, the first human infections must have occurred in November 2019—if not earlier—because there is an incubation time between infection and symptoms surfacing. If so, the virus possibly spread silently between people in Wuhan—and perhaps elsewhere—before the cluster of cases from the city’s now-infamous Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market was discovered in late December. “The virus came into that marketplace before it came out of that marketplace,” Lucey asserts.

Net, the market has all the signs of being a scapegoat, er scapeanteater.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 02:59:43 AM by iam4liberty »

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2020, 04:32:37 AM »
Boy that article is worse than initial blush.  It misrepresents the letter and cited study completely.  Here is what actual letter says:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30418-9/fulltext
Statement in support of the scientists, public health professionals, and medical professionals of China combatting COVID-19

We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin. Scientists from multiple countries have published and analysed genomes of the causative agent, severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2),1 and they overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife,2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,  8,  9,  10 as have so many other emerging

In other words, they are only pushing back against the "bioengineered" hypothesis

Here is what study says:

http://virological.org/t/the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2/398
The Proximal Origin of SARS-CoV-2

It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of an existing SARS-related coronavirus.
...
Instead, we propose two scenarios that can plausibly explain the origin of SARS-CoV-2: (i) natural selection in a non-human animal host prior to zoonotic transfer, and (ii) natural selection in humans following zoonotic transfer. We also discuss whether selection during passage in culture could have given rise to the same observed features.
...
As many of the early cases of COVID-19 were linked to the Huanan seafood and wildlife market in Wuhan, it is possible that an animal source was present at this location. Given the similarity of SARS-CoV-2 to bat SARS-like CoVs, particularly RaTG13, it is plausible that bats serve as reservoir hosts for SARS-CoV-2
...
no pangolin CoV has yet been identified that is sufficiently similar to SARS-CoV-2 across its entire genome to support direct human infection. In addition, the pangolin CoV does not carry a polybasic cleavage site insertion. For a precursor virus to acquire the polybasic cleavage site and mutations in the spike protein suitable for human ACE2 receptor binding, an animal host would likely have to have a high population density – to allow natural selection to proceed efficiently – and an ACE2 gene that is similar to the human orthologue. Further characterization of CoVs in pangolins and other animals that may harbour SARS-CoV-like viruses should be a public health priority.
...
It is also possible that a progenitor to SARS-CoV-2 jumped from a non-human animal to humans, with the genomic features described above acquired through adaptation during subsequent human-to-human transmission.
...
Estimates of the timing of the most recent common ancestor (tMRCA) of SARS-CoV-2 using currently available genome sequence data point to virus emergence in late November to early December 201920,21, compatible with the earliest retrospectively confirmed cases22. Hence, this scenario presumes a period of unrecognised transmission in humans between the initial zoonotic transfer event and the acquisition of the polybasic cleavage site.
..
Basic research involving passage of bat SARS-like coronaviruses in cell culture and/or animal models have been ongoing in BSL-2 for many years in multiple laboratories across the world25-28. There are also documented instances of the laboratory acquisition of SARS-CoV-1 by laboratory personnel working under BSL-2 containment29,30. We must therefore consider the possibility of a deliberate or inadvertent release of SARS-CoV-2. In theory, it is possible that SARS-CoV-2 acquired the observed RBD mutations site during adaptation to passage in cell culture, as has been observed in studies with SARS-CoV5 as well as MERS-CoV31


So, no intermediate animal (eg pangolin anteater) has yet been found that could directly infect people. That is required to support the meat market hypothesis.

And the lab release hypothesis is still fully supported  In fact, it speaks to two possible scenarios - direct transmission from bat and regular interaction with bats supporting adaptation within humans.

What is interesting is that they included the possibility that release could be"deliberate".   So much for quashing "conspiracy theories".

This is a good example of the importance in digging into actual source documents rather than relying on media filtered headlines.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 04:42:27 AM by iam4liberty »

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2020, 09:11:28 AM »

http://virological.org/t/the-proximal-origin-of-sars-cov-2/398
The Proximal Origin of SARS-CoV-2

Quote
Conclusions

In the midst of the global COVID-19 public health emergency it is reasonable to wonder why the origins of the epidemic matter. A detailed understanding of how an animal virus jumped species boundaries to infect humans so productively will help in the prevention of future zoonotic events. For example, if SARS-CoV-2 pre-adapted in another animal species then we are at risk of future re-emergence events even if the current epidemic is controlled. In contrast, if the adaptive process we describe occurred in humans, then even if we have repeated zoonotic transfers they are unlikely to take-off unless the same series of mutations occurs. In addition, identifying the closest animal relatives of SARS-CoV-2 will greatly assist studies of virus function. Indeed, the availability of the RaTG13 bat sequence facilitated the comparative genomic analysis performed here, helping to reveal the key mutations in the RBD as well as the polybasic cleavage site insertion.

The genomic features described here may in part explain the infectiousness and transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. Although genomic evidence does not support the idea that SARS-CoV-2 is a laboratory construct, it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here, and it is unclear whether future data will help resolve this issue. Identifying the immediate non-human animal source and obtaining virus sequences from it would be the most definitive way of revealing virus origins. In addition, it would be helpful to obtain more genetic and functional data about the virus, including experimental studies of receptor binding and the role of the polybasic cleavage site and predicted O-linked glycans. The identification of a potential intermediate host of SARS-CoV-2, as well as the sequencing of very early cases including those not connected to the Wuhan market, would similarly be highly informative. Irrespective of how SARS-CoV-2 originated, the ongoing surveillance of pneumonia in humans and other animals is clearly of utmost importance.


They don't sound very optimistic that a precise origin can determined.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2020, 10:07:40 AM »

They don't sound very optimistic that a precise origin can determined.

Yeah.  It will be very difficult now to prove market hypothesis because after the initial testing they closed it down and heavily disinfected everything.  So any smoking guns are gone now.  However, if they found a non-bat animal carrying it in the wild that was sold at the market (and not held in the lab) then it would tip the scales heavily in it's favor.

Testing the first lab hypothesis is fairly easy.  All they have to do is open up the genetic records on the viruses they had identified in the lab.  Ironically, we know this one originated from bats because UK, Germany, and US scientists each matched it with a high 90s percent level to previously published sequences from the Wuhan lab by bat virus scientist Shi Zhengli.  But they have refused so far to release more up to date data to WHO or other labs. 

The speculation isn't going to go away unless they open the books.  The lab and government lied so much early on that their denials without evidence are now being taken as signs of hidden truth:

Why a Chinese virology lab is unable to quell the coronavirus conspiracy theories around it

Some “rumors” from the early days of the epidemic after all turned out not to be far from reality. Li Wenliang, a doctor, had told others about a cluster of cases of viral pneumonia before the outbreak had been made public, but was summoned by Wuhan police for “spreading rumors.” He later became infected himself, and his death turned him into a vivid symbol of the costs of the government’s opacity—prompting an outpouring of anger and grief, and rare public demands for freedom of speech and transparency from the government.

“With the government’s bungled handling of the epidemic in Wuhan, and the pain and uncertainty the epidemic and the efforts to cope with it have produced, public trust has clearly decreased,” said Professor Dali Yang, a political scientist at University of Chicago via email. “The death of Dr. Li was a milestone in shared grief in China.”

What now can be done to contain theories of a rogue lab? Probably not a whole lot, says Kajimoto.

“When the authorities and experts have the history of not being transparent, whatever they say could sound as if they are trying to hide something,” said the assistant professor. “In this case, publicly denying the link between the lab and coronavirus could even be construed as ‘evidence’ by people who believe in this conspiracy because denial is the ‘sign’ that the truth is hidden.”
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 10:13:36 AM by iam4liberty »

Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2020, 04:16:05 PM »
My wife works with a guy who is in touch with close relatives in Wuhan.  FWIW, his personal belief is that the virus escaped from the lab.  He thinks that if it came via the markets, it would have appeared first in one of the zillions of rural markets, not in the big city.

I can't keep up with all the articles, but the picture that's starting to emerge is that the virus reached humans in November (or maybe even October), but wasn't recognized until a mass outbreak associated with the food market in late December.  Perhaps there was a human "super-spreader" at the market, rather than an animal source.

Anyway, with a month delay between arrival in humans and the market incident, there are lots of routes the virus could have taken.  The lab remains an obvious source.  But Wuhan is a busy city, and a hub for the region.  So that also leaves open the possibility that the virus was carried into Wuhan by one or more people who got infected elsewhere, and perhaps only had flu-like symptoms.

(The situation for Wuhan residents is apparently rather grim.  My wife's co-worker reports that his relatives (who are not infected) have been confined to their apartment for 4 weeks.  They received a pass to go out and shop, once.  Outside of that, they are dependent on bags of supplies delivered to their door by the authorities.  You can buy a small bag or a large bag, and there's no choice of what they bring you.)

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2020, 06:57:19 AM »
The part about a scientist selling experimental animals in the meat markets have been covered up.  They imprisoned the scientist in question on what most colleagues call questionable embezzlement charges.  The real reason they say was his selling of transgenic animals in the market. The biggest fear of human/animal transgenic hybrids is the hopping of diseases across species. Background: https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/star-chinese-scientist-and-assistant-jailed-for-embezzling-research-funds/4011003.article

https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/amp/
Don’t buy China’s story: The coronavirus may have leaked from a lab

At an emergency meeting in Beijing held last Friday, Chinese leader Xi Jinping spoke about the need to contain the coronavirus and set up a system to prevent similar epidemics in the future.

A national system to control biosecurity risks must be put in place “to protect the people’s health,” Xi said, because lab safety is a “national security” issue.

Xi didn’t actually admit that the coronavirus now devastating large swathes of China had escaped from one of the country’s bioresearch labs. But the very next day, evidence emerged suggesting that this is exactly what happened, as the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology released a new directive entitled: “Instructions on strengthening biosecurity management in microbiology labs that handle advanced viruses like the novel coronavirus.”
...
And then there is this little-known fact: Some Chinese researchers are in the habit of selling their laboratory animals to street vendors after they have finished experimenting on them.

You heard me right.

Instead of properly disposing of infected animals by cremation, as the law requires, they sell them on the side to make a little extra cash. Or, in some cases, a lot of extra cash. One Beijing researcher, now in jail, made a million dollars selling his monkeys and rats on the live animal market, where they eventually wound up in someone’s stomach.
...
Also fueling suspicions about SARS-CoV-2’s origins is the series of increasingly lame excuses offered by the Chinese authorities as people began to sicken and die.

They first blamed a seafood market not far from the Institute of Virology, even though the first documented cases of Covid-19 (the illness caused by SARS-CoV-2) involved people who had never set foot there. Then they pointed to snakes, bats and even a cute little scaly anteater called a pangolin as the source of the virus.

I don’t buy any of this. It turns out that snakes don’t carry coronaviruses and that bats aren’t sold at a seafood market. Neither are pangolins, for that matter, an endangered species valued for their scales as much as for their meat.

The evidence points to SARS-CoV-2 research being carried out at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The virus may have been carried out of the lab by an infected worker or crossed over into humans when they unknowingly dined on a lab animal. Whatever the vector, Beijing authorities are now clearly scrambling to correct the serious problems with the way their labs handle deadly pathogens.

Offline LvsChant

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2020, 01:05:31 PM »
Here is a YT vid I saw from a Catholic website. I found it very interesting to hear what the interviewee had to say on this topic...

https://youtu.be/lxEFL5KC9Xc

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2020, 03:34:55 PM »
Here is a YT vid I saw from a Catholic website. I found it very interesting to hear what the interviewee had to say on this topic...

https://youtu.be/lxEFL5KC9Xc

Very interesting point regarding the Canadian samples.

https://beta.canada.com/health/bio-warfare-experts-question-why-canada-was-sending-lethal-viruses-to-china/wcm/fce2a521-4ce1-4eb0-8ccf-43f165713c0b/amp/
Bio-warfare experts question why Canada was sending lethal viruses to China

Scientists from Canada’s National Microbiology Laboratory (NML) have also said the highly lethal bug is a potential bio-weapon.

But this March that same lab shipped samples of the henipavirus family and of Ebola to China, which has long been suspected of running a secretive biological warfare (BW) program.
....
some experts are raising questions about the March transfer, which appears to be at the centre of a shadowy RCMP investigation and dismissal of a top scientist at the Winnipeg-based NML.
...
“I would say this Canadian ‘contribution’ might likely be counterproductive,” said Dany Shoham, a biological and chemical warfare expert at Israel’s Bar-Ilan University. “I think the Chinese activities … are highly suspicious, in terms of exploring (at least) those viruses as BW agents. “
...
Asked if the possibility of the Canadian germs being diverted into a Chinese weapons program is connected to other upheaval at the microbiology lab, Public Health Agency of Canada spokeswoman Anna Maddison said this week the agency “continues to look into the administrative matter.”

The agency divulged last week that it sent samples of Ebola and henipavirus — which includes Nipah and the related Hendra — to China in March. It was meant for virus research, part of the agency’s mission to back international public-health research, a spokesman said.

Last month, an acclaimed NML scientist — Xiangguo Qiu — was reportedly escorted out of the lab along with her husband, another biologist, and members of her research team. The agency said it was investigating an “administrative issue,” and had referred a possible policy breach to the RCMP. Little more has been said about the affair.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/chinese-researcher-escorted-from-infectious-disease-lab-amid-rcmp-investigation-1.5211567
Chinese researcher escorted from infectious disease lab amid RCMP investigation

Dr. Xiangguo Qiu, her husband Keding Cheng and an unknown number of her students from China were removed from Canada's only level-4 lab on July 5, CBC News has learned.

A Level 4 virology facility is a lab equipped to work with the most serious and deadly human and animal diseases. That makes the Arlington Street lab one of only a handful in North America capable of handling pathogens requiring the highest level of containment, such as Ebola.

Security access for the couple and the Chinese students was revoked, according to sources who work at the lab and do not want to be identified because they fear consequences for speaking out.

Sources say this comes several months after IT specialists for the NML entered Qiu's office after-hours and replaced her computer. Her regular trips to China also started being denied.
...
Qiu is a medical doctor from Tianjin, China, who came to Canada for graduate studies in 1996. She is still affiliated with the university there and has brought in many students over the years to help with her work....
No one from the Chinese Embassy could be reached for comment.

'Microbiology can ... involve national security'
While there are few details available, experts say this could be a case of intellectual property theft or technology leakage to China.

"The National Microbiology Laboratory would have some pretty sensitive biological research material that ... could be shared either with or without authorization with foreign countries," said Gordon Houlden, director of the University of Alberta's China Institute.

"All of this is unproven, but even microbiology, sometimes especially microbiology, can have issues that involve national security."

It's something the Canadian Security Intelligence Service has already warned about, said Leah West, who teaches national security law at Carleton's Norman Paterson School of International Affairs.

"Canada is facing threats from foreign governments seeking to steal intellectual property and that could include state-funded research," she said.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2020, 08:46:29 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/media/cuccinelli-coronavirus-origin-theory-dr-marc-siegel.amp
DHS won't rule out coronavirus lab origins: 'We are not entirely sure yet'

Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli told Fox News medical correspondent Dr. Marc Siegel Monday that the origin of the coronavirus outbreak remains virtually unknown -- and refused to rule out a startling theory that the virus may have originated in a high-security biochemical lab in Wuhan, China.

"Our colleagues at CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] and NIH [National Institutes of Health] on the task force have made it very clear. We don't yet know the origin of this particular virus,"
...
"We are not entirely sure how this one started yet," he continued. "There is a biological facility in the ... province that people worry about. But I will say the reading that I have done of medical professionals suggest that the structure of the virus seems unlikely to have been man-made"
...
"Does that mean it rules it out?" Cuccinelli added, "No, not absolutely."
...
"We know it didn't originate in the Wuhan food market based on the study of Chinese scientists ... I'm not saying where it started, I don't know. We don't know because the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) won't open up to international experts," Cotton said on "The Story." "That's what we need to do so they can get to the bottom of where the virus originated and hopefully can effect a diagnostic test and vaccine for it."

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2020, 10:42:43 PM »

Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli told Fox News medical correspondent Dr. Marc Siegel


How did we wind up with so much "Acting" leadership?

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Virus accidentally released from lab ?
« Reply #89 on: February 29, 2020, 06:31:56 AM »
How did we wind up with so much "Acting" leadership?

It is called "drain the swamp".  It will take decades to get them all exited and replaced with decent people.