Author Topic: crime in the days of Corona virus  (Read 1630 times)

Offline mountainmoma

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crime in the days of Corona virus
« on: March 29, 2020, 08:37:25 PM »
So, you have likely heard how they are releasing all those suspects pre-trial and all the "non-violent" convicts ?  Here is another one.... released due to corona virus from halfway house, breaks into a home, threatens womans life with a knife, etc....

getting squirelly indeed

Guess I need to stop wearing sweats during this "stay at home" or find a way to wear a belt with sweats.....

https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/felon-released-early-to-protect-him-from-virus-attacks-woman-in-her-home-wc3zL98Bu0ySOMRUAVs9TQ

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 11:34:24 PM »
And, locally, this one I am putting here as we all need to use ATM's more now that bank lobbies are shut down, and now that all the other stores in the strip malls are shut down, there will not be people around as there usually are, you are more likely to be alone. At the same time, we have enhanced "pre trial releases "  due to not wanting to put them in county jails due to the corona virus, and not just in california, they are doing this alll over now. In pre-trail release,  they arrest someone for a crime, and do not hold them in county jail, like this criminal ( oh, I'm sorry Alleged criminal)

And, my county of California does not give people concealed carry permits, unless you are friends of the sherrifs or something, but it is a do-not-issue-without-a-good-reason-and-there-are-no-good-reasons county.  So no-one is carrying, except the criminals. I am beginning to wonder if we are crossing a tipping point, I am reading of so many criminal caught with guns that face no jail time, so remind me again why I shouldnt illegally carry ?

Quote
Last Thursday afternoon, a man was getting money from an ATM ----  Street when he was approached by another man brandishing a knife and demanding his money. When the victim started to walk away, the suspect followed the man before he called --PD to report he was being robbed. During the investigation, --PD Detectives were able to identify the suspect and he was arrested. He was on “pre trial release” (otherwise known as “-local sherriffs name - Get Out of Jail Free Card”) from a previous arrest earlier this month. On March 1st, just 3 weeks ago, the same guy was arrested and charged with 3 felonies, including domestic violence, false imprisonment, and vandalism. And three weeks later he’s trying to commit armed robbery in downtown -- ! The wheel has come off the clown car here and we’re headed for the ditch!

Offline LvsChant

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2020, 07:41:36 AM »
Stay safe, MM.

Offline David in MN

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2020, 07:57:00 AM »
I can only go from anecdote but I have contacts in both Anoka PD and Milwaukee PD and they both said you've got to really try to get police to interfere with you right now.

Doesn't mean there are no laws but it means there is an awful lot more discretion and the police might not even be out. So do your best and stay as safe as possible.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2020, 05:39:38 PM »
I have heard that in a few places, San Francisco and Beverly Hills, for example, stores are taking all stock out of the shut down stores and many are boarding up windows to cut losses from break and take thefts or vandalism.  Streets are empty of shoppers, and not much police out, and likely they worry about more bored and ready to steal people as time goes on

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Owners-boarding-up-SF-storefronts-during-15152302.php

There are articles of the beverly hills/LA stuff you can find too

and, Austin   https://www.newswars.com/austin-texas-bars-board-up-windows-doors-to-prevent-homeless-break-ins-during-covid-19-shutdowns/

Dont know why they havent done this around here ( yet)

Offline theBINKYhunter

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2020, 08:17:33 PM »
I tend to think unethically/illegally not because I'm a bad guy but because I try to think like one to avoid doing stupid things. I've said that right now is the time to commit a crime if you're a bad person. No one is going to think twice if you walk somewhere in gloves and a mask and it's now slightly easier to go without leaving fingerprints or having your face on CCTV.

ATMs have come to mind as well. We pulled some money last week to avoid having to use them but if we needed cash I would not go to an ATM alone right now unless I had my wife or someone else there to watch my back.

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2020, 09:05:11 PM »
I tend to think unethically/illegally not because I'm a bad guy but because I try to think like one to avoid doing stupid things. I've said that right now is the time to commit a crime if you're a bad person. No one is going to think twice if you walk somewhere in gloves and a mask and it's now slightly easier to go without leaving fingerprints or having your face on CCTV.

ATMs have come to mind as well. We pulled some money last week to avoid having to use them but if we needed cash I would not go to an ATM alone right now unless I had my wife or someone else there to watch my back.

Yeah, i already had a fair bit of cash and have been hitting the cash back when the odd bit of retail happens.  To heck with that ATM noise.

Offline surfivor

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2020, 06:40:31 PM »
Fox News seems to be raising a dam good question:

State governments are threatening to arrest and jail people who violate quarantine orders. At the same time they are wanting to release felons from jail because keeping people in jail may spread the virus.

If that is where we are headed it seems pretty bad and unacceptable on many levels and something that seems quite frustrating if it’s true. I guess they are claiming nonviolent offenders are being released but some other articles have made me wonder as well as similar previous actions by city governments
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 06:49:31 PM by surfivor »

Offline suzysurvivor

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2020, 09:45:57 AM »
And, locally, this one I am putting here as we all need to use ATM's more now that bank lobbies are shut down, and now that all the other stores in the strip malls are shut down,
i use the ATM inside the grocery store when I go.

Offline theBINKYhunter

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2020, 10:16:40 AM »
State governments are threatening to arrest and jail people who violate quarantine orders. At the same time they are wanting to release felons from jail because keeping people in jail may spread the virus.

In AZ we had a 'shelter-in-place' order issued but the document states 'no one needs to prove why they're out' so I would say it really depends on the region. Basically they've told us to stay home but I can go out and about with to repercussions right now.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2020, 08:21:46 PM »
And, here is what happens when you do not put up the plywood over the store fronts ! This area is still calm in terms of emergency services, the outbreak is still very low, etc....

5 looters arrested already

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=zYzjQg1ciOY&feature=emb_logo

There was also a 55year old woman killed in her home, this is rare in that area, homicide, looking for leads. 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 08:30:06 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline cmxterra

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2020, 09:13:27 PM »
So, you have likely heard how they are releasing all those suspects pre-trial and all the "non-violent" convicts ?  Here is another one.... released due to corona virus from halfway house, breaks into a home, threatens womans life with a knife, etc....

getting squirelly indeed

Guess I need to stop wearing sweats during this "stay at home" or find a way to wear a belt with sweats.....

https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/felon-released-early-to-protect-him-from-virus-attacks-woman-in-her-home-wc3zL98Bu0ySOMRUAVs9TQ

Carry always. Or be within reach at all times.

Offline cmxterra

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2020, 09:15:34 PM »
And, locally, this one I am putting here as we all need to use ATM's more now that bank lobbies are shut down, and now that all the other stores in the strip malls are shut down, there will not be people around as there usually are, you are more likely to be alone. At the same time, we have enhanced "pre trial releases "  due to not wanting to put them in county jails due to the corona virus, and not just in california, they are doing this alll over now. In pre-trail release,  they arrest someone for a crime, and do not hold them in county jail, like this criminal ( oh, I'm sorry Alleged criminal)

And, my county of California does not give people concealed carry permits, unless you are friends of the sherrifs or something, but it is a do-not-issue-without-a-good-reason-and-there-are-no-good-reasons county.  So no-one is carrying, except the criminals. I am beginning to wonder if we are crossing a tipping point, I am reading of so many criminal caught with guns that face no jail time, so remind me again why I shouldnt illegally carry ?

That to me has always been a "judged by 12 or carried by 6" choice. And in the end there is no choice. Self defense is a basic human right.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2020, 05:26:17 PM »
They have arrested suspects, the woman killed, 2 "transients"

So, yes, I am putting this down as related to this virus outbreak, this is otherwise unheard of here, home invasion robbery and car stolen and kill the homeowner --   

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2020/04/03/two-suspects-arrested-in-connection-to-santa-cruz-county-homicide/
2  23year olds, motive robbery and stole her car, they found them in Southern CA with the stolen car

The picture in that article only showed the one, the girl, but the young man is also very young looking.  I would not be surprised if they, or the young woman, who looks like a 13 year old in trouble despite being all of 23, rang her doorbell and she just answered the door....

No more busses or hitchhiking I guess, so...
 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 05:41:56 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline EMichael

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2020, 06:24:29 PM »
So, you have likely heard how they are releasing all those suspects pre-trial and all the "non-violent" convicts ?  ....

The problem is Johnny-bad-@ss may be in jail for shoplifting just because that is what he got caught at.  He may have done a lot worse.  He is having a day at Disneyland because law enforcement is focusing on keeping law abiding citizens the proper distance apart.

-Eric

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2020, 07:44:43 AM »
The problem is Johnny-bad-@ss may be in jail for shoplifting just because that is what he got caught at.  He may have done a lot worse.  He is having a day at Disneyland because law enforcement is focusing on keeping law abiding citizens the proper distance apart.

-Eric

My LE contacts are not reporting to me that they are not spending a lot of time enforcing social distancing.  They likewise are not enforcing traffic laws that tightly.   Most of the social distancing they are enforcing keeps them in residential neighborhoods anyway.  Big uptick in domestics disturbances. Less traffic accidents but those that happen are more severe because reduced traffic density has some people driving faster.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2020, 10:04:09 AM »
I agree, LE is not keeping people any distance apart.  They are spending their time patrolling the commercial areas though, to discourage theft, and not the residential, but likely for good reasons.

It is the legislative body, the poor decision making CA voters make on ballot initiatives, the courts, etc.... that leave the criminals loose. 

And, this virus nonsense has made it worse, as Dave noted in the other thread, CA shut down the courts end of March.  Not that having courts would have kept those 2 out of jail, given that our courts mostly just give out parole, but the sentiment that ignoring the small crimes leaves us less safe is true.  For example, a bad violent tendency.  It turns out that the transient couple that murdered the woman here last week, they were arrested for assault, battery, etc... on an old couple and grandson out walking end of Feb. in Santa Barbara, released with a court date for 30 days later, March 26th.  We had shut down courts by then.  March 30 or 31st found them in Nothern CA where they robbed and killed this woman in her home, took her car, and drove back down to Southern CA ( San Bernadino).  But, as I said, they likely would have only had parole for the earlier issue.  I do wonder wether the young man has a mental problem or a drug rage problem.  We do not seem to assess well, there must be a way to filter out the real bad ones. 

Offline Greekman

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2020, 05:39:59 AM »
And, here is what happens when you do not put up the plywood over the store fronts ! This area is still calm in terms of emergency services, the outbreak is still very low, etc....

hijacking the thread a bit, but how does that stop a robber?
Makes it a lot more effort, makes an uncertain profit target or it just keeps his mind away from it?

BTW MM, when i mentioned sewing something like a holster for when in home, I was having these in mind
https://www.thewilderness.com/magazine-speedloader-and-ammo-carriers/the-basic-pocket-mag-pouch
https://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/

Offline theBINKYhunter

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2020, 07:33:53 AM »
I've heard that DV issues are on the uptick which, while it makes sense because people are in close proximity for longer, it's very sad.

In Tucson they've starting handing out misdemeanors and a $500 fine for gatherings over 10 people. We've still got a bunch of stupid college kids who think having parties is a good idea right now. Case in point:

https://www.kgun9.com/news/coronavirus/house-party-in-tucson-could-affect-city-policy

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2020, 07:55:08 AM »
In Tucson they've starting handing out misdemeanors and a $500 fine for gatherings over 10 people.

We got a kick out of that directive here.  We have friends (more than one family) with 9+ kids.  We were wondering who they were kicking out of the house  ;D

(sorry - quarantine humor)

Offline theBINKYhunter

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2020, 08:14:38 AM »
I can appreciate the humor. I would hope common sense would prevail and if they're all living together it would be understood... but then again I used 'common sense' and 'prevail' in the same sentence so...

Offline IKN

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2020, 10:17:16 AM »
The only reason for letting these criminals out that makes any sense to me is to avoid lawsuits.
The only way prisoners could contact COVID-19 was if it were brought in by new arrests of from the police themselves. It would take extra bodies at the jails and prisons to watch over them, feed them, ect. as well.
To me, fines for not following "Social Distancing" orders is a sham. It's not going to keep people apart and I feel is just another money scam.

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2020, 11:00:09 AM »
The only reason for letting these criminals out that makes any sense to me is to avoid lawsuits.
The only way prisoners could contact COVID-19 was if it were brought in by new arrests of from the police themselves. It would take extra bodies at the jails and prisons to watch over them, feed them, ect. as well.
To me, fines for not following "Social Distancing" orders is a sham. It's not going to keep people apart and I feel is just another money scam.
Umm...you know that crims are still crimming right?  So someone commits a crime well worth incarceration and happens to be incubating COVID or an asymptomatic carrier. 

Why not give fines?  People dont like getting tickets, it is some inducement not to do what they are doing without the issues of incarcerating them, which just creates more court backlog.

The cops I know have no desire to contact anyone who isn't misbehaving in a big way.  They are seeing the stats coming out of NYPD.  I honestly dont see how anyone is running a revenue scam in this.  Tickets just to make money from people less able than ever to pay them?  Written by officers that don't want to interact with people?  What, directed by city officials who are overwhelmed with the issues?  I dont see how there could not be less revenue scamming ticket writing now than before.  In my area they are barely writing traffic citations.  When any cop could spot a traffic citation of some form within minutes during normal operations, social distancing citations are going to suddenly outstrip that?

My point is, I see no point in fretting about something that is almost certainly lesser in scope than what was happening before.  Certainly not when the ICUs in my town are at capacity.

Offline mountainmoma

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2020, 11:57:17 AM »
hijacking the thread a bit, but how does that stop a robber?
Makes it a lot more effort, makes an uncertain profit target or it just keeps his mind away from it?

BTW MM, when i mentioned sewing something like a holster for when in home, I was having these in mind
https://www.thewilderness.com/magazine-speedloader-and-ammo-carriers/the-basic-pocket-mag-pouch
https://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/

You have a good point about the plywood, it turns out that Police in the nearby city specifically asked the stores to NOT cover the windows with plywood, because then they cannot see in when patrolling the area.  If they cannot see in, then people could be inside stealing, yes, but also be inside just camping out or running a bike chop shop given that the weather is bad here again and empty stores are shelter.

This type of risk assessment likely varies by location, could be that larger cities with less patrolling or more history of casual smash and grab see value to the plywood.  For sure if there is high motivation, they can still get past plywood, I think some areas feel that they are keeping from having expensive repairs not from real thieves, but from casual misbehaviors, people breaking windows for no good reason, jut to do it

Those are nice pouches for carrying.  Thanks for the link
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 12:02:19 PM by mountainmoma »

Offline IKN

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2020, 08:07:51 PM »
Why not give fines?  People dont like getting tickets, it is some inducement not to do what they are doing without the issues of incarcerating them, which just creates more court backlog.

The cops I know have no desire to contact anyone who isn't misbehaving in a big way.  They are seeing the stats coming out of NYPD.  I honestly dont see how anyone is running a revenue scam in this.  Tickets just to make money from people less able than ever to pay them?  Written by officers that don't want to interact with people?  What, directed by city officials who are overwhelmed with the issues?  I dont see how there could not be less revenue scamming ticket writing now than before.  In my area they are barely writing traffic citations.  When any cop could spot a traffic citation of some form within minutes during normal operations, social distancing citations are going to suddenly outstrip that?

Kind of my point.
They had to create a law in order for it to be violated as I don't think having 10 or more in a social gathering was illegal before.
Yes, it might be a deterrent, but $500 ?? Speeding tickets cost less.

I understand the desire for "Social Distancing", but this sounds ridiculous.

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2020, 10:54:26 AM »
Kind of my point.
They had to create a law in order for it to be violated as I don't think having 10 or more in a social gathering was illegal before.
Yes, it might be a deterrent, but $500 ?? Speeding tickets cost less.

I understand the desire for "Social Distancing", but this sounds ridiculous.
I think you conception of sounds ridiculous very well may be calibrated to a set of circumstances that have changed considerably.

Your intuition is saying its a scam.  However, your intuition about how things should behave in this situation is only a month or so old. You are likely extrapolating previous experience to make that judgment, and that may be valid extrapolation, or at least work to some degree, but there should also be clanging warning bells that the extrapolation of intuition could be flawed now that it is exposed to novel situations.

The world isn't here to make sense to us, and for myself at least, I try to avoid resenting it for not making sense to me.  Once we do start making sense of the world, it is really tempting to tell ourselves pretty narratives about what the world means.  But there is a trap there also, our brain receives more satisfaction from coming up with pretty narratives than it does from making accurate observations about the world...especially when the accurate observation is to say, "I'm not sure what to think."

I have studied CBRN stuff, domestic response planning, civil defense and the like for two decades.  I still find myself stating, "I'm not sure" an awful lot lately.

Do you need to do anything with the information yet?  There is plenty of time to vote the bums out, write op-eds or whatnot.  I am trying to avoid making judgements until I get closer to actually doing something with the data.  Note I am not telling you, "You're wrong."  I don't need to make that judgement.  I am trying to give an alternative interpretation.  Maybe it applies, maybe it doesn't.  I hope you find it useful and thought provoking even if you ultimately think it off base.

Offline IKN

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2020, 07:45:02 AM »
Here’s what I understand based on the numbers being put out. Even with all the precautions, recommendations, and lock downs, COVID-19 is still spreading like wildfire both here and across the world. Short of invoking martial law and quarantining everyone to their homes (which would result in a far greater disaster) this is going to keep on spreading.
With all the steps taken so far, a little over a million people have now been exposed and contracted the Coronavirus in the last 3 months or so.
That leaves about 328,000,000 people to go in the USA.  To keep the course of “Flatten the Curve” would entail keeping this up for about 108 months or about 9 years, by my math. Even if they develop some drug to combat this, between development, testing, trials, and getting it to market in-mass will take 1 to 2 years minimum.

People are going broke, businesses are closing, markets collapsing, and who knows what the impact this is going to have on the 2020 agricultural crops. So, the two choices as I see them are:
1.   Remove the restrictions and let COVID run its course, which will result in tens of thousands of potential deaths.
2.   Keep the restrictions, flatten the curve, and maybe only a few thousand will die of COVID. Oh, but millions will starve to death and many who don’t will be reduced to utter poverty.

Neither choice is palatable, but I see no other alternatives at this point. So yes, from the facts as currently presented, fining people $500 for not Social Distancing” is nothing more than a money grab since it’s basically a threat to try and make people obey.
If it’s not a money grab and social distancing is absolutely necessary, why not toss them in jail or a concentration camp instead of fining them. That would be way more successful in protecting the rest of us than giving them a ticket and letting them go back on the streets and now possibly being infected ??

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2020, 08:04:40 AM »
Here’s what I understand based on the numbers being put out. Even with all the precautions, recommendations, and lock downs, COVID-19 is still spreading like wildfire both here and across the world. Short of invoking martial law and quarantining everyone to their homes (which would result in a far greater disaster) this is going to keep on spreading.
With all the steps taken so far, a little over a million people have now been exposed and contracted the Coronavirus in the last 3 months or so.
That leaves about 328,000,000 people to go in the USA.  To keep the course of “Flatten the Curve” would entail keeping this up for about 108 months or about 9 years, by my math. Even if they develop some drug to combat this, between development, testing, trials, and getting it to market in-mass will take 1 to 2 years minimum.

People are going broke, businesses are closing, markets collapsing, and who knows what the impact this is going to have on the 2020 agricultural crops. So, the two choices as I see them are:
1.   Remove the restrictions and let COVID run its course, which will result in tens of thousands of potential deaths.
2.   Keep the restrictions, flatten the curve, and maybe only a few thousand will die of COVID. Oh, but millions will starve to death and many who don’t will be reduced to utter poverty.

Neither choice is palatable, but I see no other alternatives at this point. So yes, from the facts as currently presented, fining people $500 for not Social Distancing” is nothing more than a money grab since it’s basically a threat to try and make people obey.
If it’s not a money grab and social distancing is absolutely necessary, why not toss them in jail or a concentration camp instead of fining them. That would be way more successful in protecting the rest of us than giving them a ticket and letting them go back on the streets and now possibly being infected ??

Maybe they are fining people because that is what they know how to do, their previous experience biases at work.  That is attractive to them mentally (a familiar way to solve new problems) and additionally it is a lot easier than assuming the risk of starting concentration camps.  Even people who are more comfortable with government power than we tend to be probably recoil from that, even if it makes a certain sort of sense.

They are not just trying to protect us.  They are trying to protect us, do their jobs, balance limited resources while mentally adjusting to the new normal.  The entire system is not totally rational, never has been, but is exceptionally not so when the daily reality is upended and assumptions are changing every day.  Even individuals are being contradictory in their words and actions as they try to deal with it.  Let alone across agencies and echelons of government. 

Offline Morning Sunshine

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2020, 09:16:55 AM »
I saw the news recently that a woman and her son were lost in a kayaking (canoeing?) accident this week.  How much time are the search and rescue forces devoting to finding her and her son's bodies when they could be doing other, more urgent things?  But because she is a Kennedy, her body recovery is paramount?

my point is that there are selfish people who are not thinking about the random things that CAN and DO happen but we do not have resources to deal with right now.

Offline David in MN

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Re: crime in the days of Corona virus
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2020, 10:39:27 AM »
I do know a couple restaurant owners who have expressed a little dismay that if they opened their doors they'd be fined but if a miscreant kicks in the door and vandalizes the place the police won't give chase. I ****think**** (and I might be over my skis here so give me some latitude) it's more related to the generalized feeling that has nothing to do with pandemic that those of us who can write the check WILL write the check. And for those who can't write the check there are no rules. It's a frustration I share and it is very real.

I had another brush with the state of our security. During a hardware store run I passed an unmarked police car in one of the several speed traps near us. I was dumbfounded. Talk about a complete misallocation of resources. I'm no fan of my local police but that straddled from "bad job" to "public danger". We're all hunkered down in our houses with limited supply runs and his strategy is to peg a few people going a little over the limit? Interact with as many people as possible?

Hopefully all this gets ironed out in a sensible way. In a certain sense I'm sympathetic to the job the police have. I have no problem with the strategy of letting the by-the-book stuff slide a little and having officers politely remind people not to loiter and to stay safe. It's a strange time and adapting is tough for everyone.