Author Topic: i just found Field Suture KIT  (Read 19502 times)

Offline wcff3431

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 8
i just found Field Suture KIT
« on: October 25, 2008, 11:48:35 PM »
while on another forum i seen they have a store to in on the home hage while looking at it i found they sell AMK Field Suture KIT.
Contents           1..... Suture, Nylon, 5-0
                       1..... Syringe, 1 cc with Needle
                       1..... Syringe, Luer LokĀ®, Sterile, 3 ml
                       1..... Needle, Disposable, Sterile, 18G x 1 1/2"
                       1..... Needle, Disposable, Sterile, 21G x 1 1/2"
                       1..... Needle, Disposable, Sterile, 25G x 5/8"
                       1..... Angiocatheter, 18G x 1 1/4"
                       1..... Gloves, Nitrile (Pair)
                       3..... Antimicrobial Towelette  $18.00
i dont think thats a bad price, but i really don't know.
ok heres the site  http://www.wildernessoutfittersarchery.com/FirstAid.html


Offline flagtag

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1989
  • Karma: 41
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 05:21:12 PM »
Thanks for the link.  Something like that just might come in handy.
I've been looking for something like that, but those are much better.
Thanks again.

Offline DeltaEchoVictor

  • Evil Forum Overlord
  • Administrator On Leave
  • Survival Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 5735
  • Karma: 542
  • Vincit Omnia Veritas
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 05:39:09 AM »
while on another forum i seen they have a store to in on the home hage while looking at it i found they sell AMK Field Suture KIT.
Contents           1..... Suture, Nylon, 5-0
                       1..... Syringe, 1 cc with Needle
                       1..... Syringe, Luer LokĀ®, Sterile, 3 ml
                       1..... Needle, Disposable, Sterile, 18G x 1 1/2"
                       1..... Needle, Disposable, Sterile, 21G x 1 1/2"
                       1..... Needle, Disposable, Sterile, 25G x 5/8"
                       1..... Angiocatheter, 18G x 1 1/4"
                       1..... Gloves, Nitrile (Pair)
                       3..... Antimicrobial Towelette  $18.00
i dont think thats a bad price, but i really don't know.
ok heres the site  http://www.wildernessoutfittersarchery.com/FirstAid.html



Looks nice.

Anybody got a source for lidocaine?

Offline Taylor3006

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Karma: 42
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 01:08:04 PM »
"Anybody got a source for lidocaine?"


Check with feed stores or Tractor Supply. Vet grade meds are easy to find and you don't need a prescription.

Offline sardog

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 66
  • Karma: 6
  • All bark, no bite
    • Buck Creek Survival
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 01:50:09 PM »
Don't be so quick to suture. Unless you can really clean and debride the wound and create a sterile field, you might be asking for an infection that will be very difficult to treat. Suturing in a lot of cases is only cosmetic, alot of the time if the wound is dirty, it is best to clean it well an let it heal from the inside out.
Then you can show off your really cool scar !

Offline Taylor3006

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Karma: 42
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 03:40:32 PM »
Don't be so quick to suture. Unless you can really clean and debride the wound and create a sterile field, you might be asking for an infection that will be very difficult to treat. Suturing in a lot of cases is only cosmetic, alot of the time if the wound is dirty, it is best to clean it well an let it heal from the inside out.
Then you can show off your really cool scar !

I can't agree more with this statement. In the field, packing and dressing a wound is probably best for most people. I think most trained medical people (surgeons probably the exception here) would probably just close the wound without surturing with butterfly bandages, steri strips or the like for wounds that are "clean". Wound closure is probably best left to trained medical people. For most people just stick with bandages and dressings.

Offline firetoad

  • Guardian of The Gateway
  • Moderator On Leave
  • Dedicated Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 1706
  • Karma: 170
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 05:24:53 PM »
Quote
Unless you can really clean and debride the wound

Debriding is something that most are not aware of.  I have studied quite a bit regarding the US Army's Medical Department in WWII.  During WWII, debriding was used extensively in the field and probably saved uncountable lives.  As a matter of fact, one memoir I read spoke about debridement almost every other page.  In the event that someone would require suturing themselves, your conditions would probably be very similar to that seen in the field during WWII.  Without the proper training, as the two posts above stated, suturing yourself could do more harm than good. 

BTW, the definition of debridement from Wikipedia:  the removal of dead, damaged, or infected tissue to improve the healing potential of the remaining healthy tissue. 

Note:  I am not a medical expert.  My training is limited to past OJT fire and law enforcement and First Responder certification.  So...

SueDonim

  • Guest
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2008, 05:39:22 PM »
Maggots are supposed to be very useful for debriding.  Kind of disgusting, but supposed to be very effective, especially for severe cases like burns.  Sounds antiquated but supposedly becoming used more often.  Kind of like Dr. Phlox did on Star Trek: Enterprise.

Info available here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggot_therapy

And here:  http://www.medicaledu.com/maggots.htm

One comment of note: "Simple enough that non-surgeons can use it to provide thorough debridement when surgery is not available or is not the optimal choice. This means that it is also possible to provide surgical quality debridement as an outpatient or in the home."

Offline 19kilo

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • Karma: 18
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2008, 09:46:57 PM »
Maggots are supposed to be very useful for debriding.  Kind of disgusting, but supposed to be very effective, especially for severe cases like burns.  Sounds antiquated but supposedly becoming used more often.  Kind of like Dr. Phlox did on Star Trek: Enterprise.

Info available here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggot_therapy

And here:  http://www.medicaledu.com/maggots.htm

One comment of note: "Simple enough that non-surgeons can use it to provide thorough debridement when surgery is not available or is not the optimal choice. This means that it is also possible to provide surgical quality debridement as an outpatient or in the home."

I know it works , but I just can't see myself doing it.  Maggots make me nauseous.

Offline DeltaEchoVictor

  • Evil Forum Overlord
  • Administrator On Leave
  • Survival Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 5735
  • Karma: 542
  • Vincit Omnia Veritas
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 02:54:48 AM »
I could do it, but how exactly is one to find maggots that aren't roiling around in something disgusting?

In nature you aren't going to be able to find them in anything that isn't already rotting or decayed & are you really going to want to introduce possibly infectious material into an open wound?

SueDonim

  • Guest
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 06:20:08 AM »
Good point.  I found some in my trashcan once, but I guess that's your point.

The maggots they use are called medical maggots.  I assume they are from medical supply houses.

Would be worth the research to see if there is a way to use "free-range" maggots.  I'll see if I can find anything.

I agree it would be hard to apply them.  I guess that's why you put whiskey in your BOB.

By the way, is that quote from Jefferson real?  I haven't heard that one before.  It is excellent

Lucretius

  • Guest
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 06:39:32 AM »
Hmmm... in my big, serious trauma FAK I keep a tube of super glue.  8)

SueDonim

  • Guest
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 07:42:55 AM »
Did a bit more poking around on maggots (I really should get a life).

Sterilization, as you mentioned, is critical, as the larvae may carry pathogens and introduce new infection.

The current process is to use sterilized maggots.

The eggs are sterilized (some info is at this link:  http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/reprint/16/3/572.pdf).

The larvae themselves are already sterile (that is, disinfected) at birth, so the eggs are sterilized so that they do not contaminate the larvae.

The larvae are good for about 4-6 days.

A presentation on the technique, with some very disgusting pictures (really, don't read that over lunch) are here:  http://www.telfordpct.nhs.uk/healthcare_professionals/nursing_services/maggots.pdf

Monarch Labs http://www.monarchlabs.com/wcin.htm has everything you would want to know (and more).

So maybe (maybe) could be used in a pinch, but there is risk.

Offline archer

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 17112
  • Karma: 380
  • #ImissAmerica
    • Journey to Greener Pastures
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 10:09:51 AM »
Eww.. I don't want to look... but I have to... No No No! Don't click that link!!!  Ewww! A 'run away' dressing... So much for breakfast...

Offline DeltaEchoVictor

  • Evil Forum Overlord
  • Administrator On Leave
  • Survival Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 5735
  • Karma: 542
  • Vincit Omnia Veritas
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2008, 10:45:08 PM »
Did a bit more poking around on maggots (I really should get a life).

Sterilization, as you mentioned, is critical, as the larvae may carry pathogens and introduce new infection.

The current process is to use sterilized maggots.

The eggs are sterilized (some info is at this link:  http://www.ejbjs.org/cgi/reprint/16/3/572.pdf).

The larvae themselves are already sterile (that is, disinfected) at birth, so the eggs are sterilized so that they do not contaminate the larvae.

The larvae are good for about 4-6 days.

A presentation on the technique, with some very disgusting pictures (really, don't read that over lunch) are here:  http://www.telfordpct.nhs.uk/healthcare_professionals/nursing_services/maggots.pdf

Monarch Labs http://www.monarchlabs.com/wcin.htm has everything you would want to know (and more).

So maybe (maybe) could be used in a pinch, but there is risk.

Thanks for the info.  This must have been done in the distant past at some point, I would think.  I wonder if you hit the maggots with a quick dash of alcohol if that wouldn't be sufficient to kill any possible infectious material.

I can't open the links where I'm at presently, so I can't read the info.  I'll have to wait until I get to home.

Offline DeltaEchoVictor

  • Evil Forum Overlord
  • Administrator On Leave
  • Survival Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 5735
  • Karma: 542
  • Vincit Omnia Veritas
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 10:54:55 PM »
By the way, is that quote from Jefferson real?  I haven't heard that one before.  It is excellent

After some looking, I'm going to have to say I'm not sure.  He is certainly given credit as having said it, but there seems to be some contention about what the original quote may have been.

Offline sardog

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 66
  • Karma: 6
  • All bark, no bite
    • Buck Creek Survival
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008, 07:45:28 PM »

Thanks for the info.  I wonder if you hit the maggots with a quick dash of alcohol if that wouldn't be sufficient to kill any possible infectious material.


That sounds like a method to try at the local dive bars.  ;D

Offline Taylor3006

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Karma: 42
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2008, 09:38:39 PM »

"Did a bit more poking around on maggots (I really should get a life). Sterilization, as you mentioned, is critical, as the larvae may carry pathogens and introduce new infection.

The current process is to use sterilized maggots."



Lawd I swore I would not put my two cents in for maggots but here is what I know about maggot therapy.  When in the Navy one of my doctors (a DO) and a PA got into a discussion of this for wound debridement and I listened in. The PA served in Vietnam as a corpsman and saw the technique used by the natives and the DO had served in Korea (and probably WWII considering his age at the time) and had actually used the therapy. They did not use maggots initally themselves but certain flies were bred in the labs and then set on the wound in a jar to lay eggs on the wound site. They applied flies to the wound daily until maggot activity was spotted. From what I remember the flies will only lay eggs in dying/dead tissue but the maggots will consume any flesh so they monitored the maggot infested wounds constantly and the patient was advised to call for a nurse if there was ANY pain (dead tissue is dead including nerves). They only left a few maggots in the wound, not a whole herd. I do not recall the exact number but I THINK it was around a dozen or so. Wounds were also monitored for fresh blood as well. When the dead tissue had been debrided the maggots were flushed from the wound with sterile water and then packed or closed depending on the wound. The wound would be monitored for several days following the flushing to make sure that the wound was maggot free. They used this therapy for badly infected wounds or early stages of gangrene usually on the extremities and patients. Now for my own opinion, maggot therapy probably would not be such a bad idea even for someone with little medical training. All that is needed is just constant montioring of the wound. Surgical debridement is not something you want to try with no medical training/supervision. Done poorly you can do much more harm than good cutting nerves, blood vessels, etc. Anyways that is what I know about treating wounds with fly larva. Good luck with it.


PS Just after typing all this I decided to look in my medical books for information. There is a chapter in the US Special Forces Medical Handbook on this and the info I posted is very close to what is written there. The Handbook suggests 20 - 100 maggots per wound depending on the wound size (not very helpful) and I would err on a smaller amount of larva as they would eat less tissue and not get into living tissue so quickly. The book also suggests checking the wound every four hours after flushing to check for maggot activity.



Offline Tennessee Mountaineer

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: 3
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2008, 11:42:02 PM »
"A Laceration unless it involes a major blood vessel is not a life saving issue. Since they are large and appear nasty they make the patient apprehensive. Usually there is more fright than pain with a laceration. the main problem with lacerations is that it easily becomes infected. to prevent infection and to promote growth of new tissue, the wound must be debrided.
 The process of debriding or debridment is the surgical removal of all dirt, contamination and dead tissue. this orocedure should be done at a treatment facility under sterile conditions.
 After debridement such wounds are often left unsutured for a few days. the procedure called "delayed primary closure" or DPC prevents infection and promotes better healing. all wounds regardless of size should be considered contaminated and should recieve DPC treatment." from FM 8-36 The Aidmans Medical guide.
 
  It is better to irrigate, irrigate, irrigate then irrigate some more. then keep it clean and covered with a sterile dressing. Using maggots or other techniques is risky due to the contamination factor. good sterile technique and small scissors, forceps, and a scapel is a better way to debride a wound.
 
  It's best to let it heal naturally unless your really familiar with suturing the different layers of the  skin i.e. muscle, fascia. There are different suturing techniques, types of suture and closing techniques as well as aseptic techniques to consider. As someone said earlier use butterfly bandages and clean it out before you consider suturing. If you leave any contaminant in it and close it, you've got a really bad situation. Also perioxide. iodine etc kill new tissue so don't use them to clean it out after you've debrided it.
 
  I know from true experience with a GSW to the calf from a hunting accident that you can put antibiotics straight into the wound. Just open the cap and pour it right in then redress the wound with a sterile dressing. Self treated mine with the advice from an RN. Worked like a charm.
 Just my .02 cents. be careful out there.

Total Resistance

  • Guest
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2008, 11:51:12 AM »
Concur with what Tennesse Mountainer said,

unless you know how its not worth the pain to suture for a small wound.

If it is a deep wound and you create an air pocket you will breed bacteria.

The best book I've seen for suturing though is "Wounds and Lacerations". Its the expensive one.

If you have a deep wound, fill it with granulated sugar which will work by osmotic reaction absorbing all water out and preventing infection. You must flush this out with sterile fluid (pt's urine if needed) several times a day and repack.

Offline archer

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 17112
  • Karma: 380
  • #ImissAmerica
    • Journey to Greener Pastures
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2008, 01:11:17 PM »
Use granulated sugar??? Interesting. I wonder then if a honey layer would help keep out nasties and prevent infection.

Offline sardog

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 66
  • Karma: 6
  • All bark, no bite
    • Buck Creek Survival
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2008, 02:31:56 PM »
Concur with what Tennesse Mountainer said,

unless you know how its not worth the pain to suture for a small wound.

If it is a deep wound and you create an air pocket you will breed bacteria.

The best book I've seen for suturing though is "Wounds and Lacerations". Its the expensive one.

If you have a deep wound, fill it with granulated sugar which will work by osmotic reaction absorbing all water out and preventing infection. You must flush this out with sterile fluid (pt's urine if needed) several times a day and repack.


With the ability to let the wound drain. Don't just fill it up with sugar and close it up !!

Total Resistance

  • Guest
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2008, 07:16:06 PM »
You could also make sugardine by mixing granulated sugar with betadine. You'll still need to clean it out several times a day.

A 60cc syringe can be handy here to give you the force needed to clean the wound of the used sugar.

I've read a few things about using honey on animals which looked promising so would assume it would work on people but never read anything about honey and wounds specifically for people.

Offline archer

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 17112
  • Karma: 380
  • #ImissAmerica
    • Journey to Greener Pastures
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2008, 12:57:07 AM »
A quick google of 'honey wound care' brings these up:
http://dermnetnz.org/treatments/honey.html
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html
and more..
Looks like honey is good for wound care. Most amazing thing is that when diluted with water, honey contains an enzyme that creates hydrogen peroxide.

So honey is good for more than spreading on fresh bread and making mead!

Offline Louisiana Suvivor

  • Can't Spell His Own Name
  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1767
  • Karma: 54
  • I'm back! I miss you too.
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 12:30:00 AM »
Mead, honey on bread, AND a clean wound!? that sounds too good to be true. amazing what things will do for you

Offline archer

  • Administrator
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *******
  • Posts: 17112
  • Karma: 380
  • #ImissAmerica
    • Journey to Greener Pastures
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2008, 09:20:39 AM »
And you can put it in the bread you make that you smear with honey to eat while you are drinking mead to kill the pain of that wound while you lather on honey to protect it. Of course, do not go lie down on an ants nest anytime soon.

Offline chris

  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 3168
  • Karma: 1034
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2008, 09:37:27 AM »
Who cares about infection, a real man would susture himself up. All kidding aside, I think Hollywood has done more to peretrate the myth that a gash needs to be sewn up.

Grain alcohol works great to clean a wound. 70% alcohol is better than 100% FYI.

Offline creuzerm

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 426
  • Karma: 33
    • My Blog
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2008, 11:05:57 PM »
i got a pretty nasty cat bite a while back.
No stitches. The doc said they don't stitch bites. I had already figured as much. I went to the doc to get the antibiotics. 6 hours, and it was already infected. I had cleaned it out just as well as the ER did.
I played with both Honey and tripleantibiotic. Alternated days. The honey bandage didn't stick to the wound like the antibiotic liked to. The honey is also more fluid then the antiboitic, so it soaked into the bandage more.

I doubt I would mess with sutures unless it was needed to hold important bits together or likely to die without giving it a go.

I am kinda a let it heal naturally, and push out any crud that I couldn't clean out.

Offline Taylor3006

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 492
  • Karma: 42
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2008, 03:15:36 PM »
"I doubt I would mess with sutures unless it was needed to hold important bits together or likely to die without giving it a go."

Punctures or most penetrating wounds are rarely sutured unless there is underlying damage that must be repaired. Not sure why anyone would want to use honey on a wound, triple antibiotic or the like works as well if not better than just bacteriostatic solutions like sugars. Treatment of punctures is flushing with sterile water or the like, antibiotic creams, dressings, and in some cases drains. Sugars are not antibiotic, they inhibit bacterial growth, filling a wound with sugar might be ok if nothing else is available but not really something you should do when normal treatments/medicines are available. The only time I would use urine to flush a wound would be if I were in a situation where conservation of water was paramount and then only if the need was great. Yes urine itself is normally sterile, its the path from bladder to exit that is not sterile. Urine contains lots of waste products your body is trying to get rid of, introducing them in a wound is probably not best. Primitive medicine is a fun subject but is akin to using a bow and arrow instead of a firearm for defense, in a pinch it could work but whats the point when the better option is available?

When flushing wounds, a dilute betadine solution is ok but must be rinsed out as well. All iodine based products can cause necrosis of the tissues when allowed too much contact with flesh. Flushing a wound with hydrogen peroxide is fine as long as it is not too deep. I never understood why this was the case other than when H2O2 breaks down it only becomes water and you can use water in wounds for flushing but my doctors and even vets said not to do this. One of these days I will remember to ask. As for dumping antibiotic capsules into a wound, that can work, not sure why you would rather do that than to take the capsule but if it floats your boat. Modern medicine is a marvel, most of it is time tested and has tons of research behind the procedure. Not so sure why everyone is so intent on reinventing the wheel. There are a couple of interesting books on the subject one is "Primitive Remedies" by John Wesley and another is "The Witch Doctor's Manual" by Peggy Cochrane. I keep these with my medical books from the 19th century around when I want a good laugh just as I am sure that people from the 22nd century on will look back and laugh at us for what we call state of the art medicine.

rmcculloch

  • Guest
Re: i just found Field Suture KIT
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2008, 09:38:27 PM »
Screw sutures, two words SUPER GLUE!!  If I can't super glue a cut together then I REALLY need major medical attention.  For the most part, stitching/staples are to reduce scar tissue formation.  I'm not to worried about a scar in a SHTF situation.  Also, unless you have some fairly extensive training actually doing suturing, it can be somewhat difficult.  In my paramedic clinical rotation in school we did some and I still wouldn't want to do it without an ER doc right there with me.  You would be amazed what you can do with super glue, or dermabond if you want the medical version of it.  Simpler is sometimes better!