Author Topic: At Gunpoint...  (Read 8453 times)

Goatdog62

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At Gunpoint...
« on: July 05, 2009, 12:12:32 AM »
So after a great day with my family we decide to go to the fireworks show on the Tennessee River in downtown Knoxville. We piled in the just-purchased Sequoia and headed downtown about 8:30.

    Traffic wasn't too bad and I managed to get uptown fairly quickly. I rolled to a stop at a redlight in the right lane of a typical 4-lane city street and a few seconds later I felt a pretty hard lurch from behind. I asked everyone if they were okay and heard good things from all. I then jumped out to check on the other driver, asking my wife to call in the accident as I hopped out. When I got to the rear of my truck, the car that hit me is attempting to pull out and and pass me, except I'm now in his path and he hesitated long enough for me to pull my S&W Model 642 Airweight from my pocket holster and train it on his mug through the windshield. I did this out of belief that I had nowhere to go but into the other lane of traffic or backpeddle towards my drivers door.

   In this same situation in Feb 2001, as a cop training a new academy graduate, I was forced to shoot a violent, fleeing felon through the windshield, stopping his aggression with one 9mm through the forehead fired from a GLOCK 17. I was feeling a little deja-vu the entire time.

   I gave loud verbal commands to turn off the car and told him to keep his hands visible. He showed no signs of comprehension and I realized he was Hispanic. I gave more commands, this time in Spanish, and he started to argue and began to crank the steering wheel more to resume his attempt to get away. I got REALLY LOUD at this point and he held his hands up. I then ordered him out of the car and onto the pavement. He did so and I told him if he moved he'd regret it. Knowing I was wearing civilian clothes and the suspect was proned out with my foot ready to keep him there, I reholstered and kept my hand on my now pocketed weapon.
  
   Because it was a special event, cops were everywhere and I flagged down a passing motor officer. It turned out to be a female I had trained at the academy in 2000. She U-turned and cuffed him, just how I'd taught her to, I noted with satisfaction.

   Turns out he was uninsured, unlicensed, illegally in this country, and drunk to boot. The now heavily damaged car wasn't his and the registration was incorrect, so no idea who he really was. The damage was all to my bumper and I'll get my wife to get it repaired next week. Fortunately my family was okay which is all that matters. Another responding officer, a friend of mine from our SWAT days, gave me an escort to the best place to see the fireworks and we salvaged the night.

   Anyway, I wanted to let everyone know why I carry all the time. The other day someone asked me if I was armed at my daughters wedding. I said yes. They then said "Why? Were you expecting trouble?" I said "No, if I was expecting trouble I wouldn't have went. When I'm not expecting trouble, I go armed."



(modified for spelling by Goatdog)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 01:36:36 AM by Goatdog62 »

Offline wbo3

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 12:24:39 AM »
Glad you and your family are ok, that could have turned out really bad.

Offline PistolWhipped

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 12:39:26 AM »
Wow.  Glad to hear the family is safe, that's the important part.

Hare of Caerbannog

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 12:44:43 AM »
You ROCK Goatdog62
Glad to hear the family is ok.
When this happened to me I was dazed and confused on the streets of Reno and at the mercy of those near by.
So glad it worked out to the best for you.

Offline Sister Wolf

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 01:09:20 AM »
Damn, Goatdog.  You are awesome.


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Goatdog62

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 01:20:22 AM »
Thanks all. My 4 girls all had to see Dad in action for the first, and hopefully last, time. They started texting their friends on Superdad's exploits before we even left the scene. When I was a kid we had to wait until the next time we went to school.

I told them to text any current and future boyfriends what I sound/act like when a young man pisses me off. ;D

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 01:31:12 AM »
Glad that all turned out well, it is probably a good thing that your daughters got to see you in action. I am glad that it did not get worse than it was.

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Offline firefly

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2009, 08:45:53 AM »
Hell yeah GD62

Offline Stinkie Archer

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 10:15:58 AM »
Damn, good for you GoatDog! Glad you came out of it safe and your family safe.


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Offline swanson

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 10:34:23 AM »
I commend you on your judgment, situational awareness, instinct, and the kicking in of your prior training my friend.

Its the crucible of the unknown that reminds us to be always prepared to take swift and violent action if needed to make ourselves and our loved ones safe from danger no matter the circumstance.

I am not sure that many could have reacted in the fashion you did, kept their cool, and managed the risks all in kind. How many of us walk out the door every day prepared as you were? I doubt many.

I am glad you and your family are safe.

Glad you're on my side Brother. We need more folks just like you.

swanson

Offline ejsandstrom

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 10:46:12 AM »
That is just a WOW moment. Good Job.

Now for the sad part.

He will be out on bail. Not show up to court, And stay in the country untill he kills someone. Then this will repeat it self.
Of course freedom is not free, we work 4 months a year for it.

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Offline Heavy G

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2009, 10:47:16 AM »
Wow.  A reminder of many important things.  Being armed, being trained, being in control of your emotions, being at least a little bilingual ... and most importantly protecting yourself and your family.  That's what it's all about. 

I'm going to think about this quite a bit and reevaluate some things in my daily routine.  Thank you.

P.S.  Now I know why your character Jesse Steele in your novel Steel Resolve was described as a "sh!t magnet."  You seem to attract things like this.  Not by your actions, but by some cosmic force in the universe that says "send trouble Goatdog's way."
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 01:11:24 PM by Heavy G »

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Offline ColdHaven

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2009, 01:26:48 PM »
I am glad everything turned out okay. I am going to get my concealed carry next year when I can afford it.

I had a question though. If it were a civilian that the police didn't recognize wasn't a threat wouldn't they arrest you and confinscate your weapon until they sort out what happened? Just wondered how it would work in that situation.

Offline Remington

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2009, 03:05:37 PM »
I had a question though. If it were a civilian that the police didn't recognize wasn't a threat wouldn't they arrest you and confinscate your weapon until they sort out what happened? Just wondered how it would work in that situation.

I think, at a minimum, it's safe to say that a non-LEO wouldn't have made it to the fireworks display that evening.
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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2009, 03:07:49 PM »
I think, at a minimum, it's safe to say that a non-LEO wouldn't have made it to the fireworks display that evening.

I think it would depend on what state you're in.


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Offline Pathfinder

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2009, 03:49:05 PM »
Glad everythign went "OK" - should never have happened, hence the quotes.

At least, did you get to say - move and I keeeeell you!!!! ? ? ?   ;D  ;D
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Offline Remington

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2009, 04:12:43 PM »
I think it would depend on what state you're in.

Indeed; also the city and reporting officers.
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Hare of Caerbannog

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2009, 04:19:36 PM »
I think it would depend on what state you're in.

and

Indeed; also the city and reporting officers.

I agree.
Without going into details, I was involved in a situation a few years ago that would have gotten almost anyone tossed in jail for assualt.
I spent about 2 hours at the police station and without me giving any comment on the situation, I was released on the prommise that I would come back and talk to the DA on Monday morning. I returned at the set time on Monday and spent about 20 minutes talking to the DA.
That was it. It was over.

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2009, 04:24:19 PM »
Well, I know my state and county allow open carry, but still something tells me that I would be hauled to jail for protecting myself. I would be afraid to pull a gun on someone unless I was sure that they had a gun also, lest they say I used excessive force, and that I should have retreated. I didn't mean to derail the thread though. Just wanted to know what others had experienced. I think I will go start a thread on that.

Offline Pathfinder

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2009, 07:34:11 PM »
After thinking about this, and not knowing what city/state you were in, I was wondering to what degree do you think you got the pass from the responding officer because she knew you, rather than busting you for "brandishing", or even "ADW"? I'm thinking most of us would get busted to be sorted out at the station. Your thoughts?

Again, though, damn glad everything went OK in the end. It could so easily have been much worse. I had a legally blind friend hit by a immigrant cabbie in NYC and nothing ever happened to him. The friend had to pay her own medical expenses as well.
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Goatdog62

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2009, 11:21:36 PM »
First of all, thanks for all the well-wishers who gave the heartfelt "Glad you and your familiy is safe."

It means a lot to me.

In any state that allows a CCW, I committed no crime. I hesitated telling everybody about this very real occurrence, because I knew that my friendship with my previous police officers co-workers would be questioned as a "free pass" to act however I wanted. Fair statement and I can see why it would come up.

One of the comments was "If it were a civilian that the police didn't recognize wasn't a threat wouldn't they arrest you and confinscate your weapon until they sort out what happened? Just wondered how it would work in that situation."

Short answer is more than likely not.

A. The gun was put away before any officer(s) arrived. I put it away on the possible chance that the responding officer wouldn't recognize me. I would not fault him/her if he drew down on me had I still been holding the weapon. That is an officer safety issue and he/she should take all precautions.

B. I was in danger at the moment I drew the weapon. You do not have to wait to see a gun before you can defend yourself, a gun doesn't even need to be part of the bad guys arsenal. He was driving a 3000 lb weapon and was within 3 feet of hitting me head on. This exact circumstance has been tested hundreds of times in various courts. I was cleared criminally when I had to actually shoot someone under this similar scenario. I won a civil case brought against me for the same case also. Civil cases only require a "preponderance of the evidence (50% or more). Criminal cases are, of course, "beyond a reasonable doubt."

C. You cannot make an arrest just to "sort out what happened." Probable cause is very clearly defined in cases such as this. It would mean a short career for an officer to operate like that. TV hasn't helped this misconception much. We were taught very early in the Academy that you cannot "unarrest" someone. Any attorneys out there can chime in. If the officer later determined that I had in fact committed a crime, he/she could seek an arrest warrrant from a judge or an indictment from a grand jury. Many arrests do not occur the same day the crime occurs.

Also I'll address this; "I think, at a minimum, it's safe to say that a non-LEO wouldn't have made it to the fireworks display that evening."

  I can't agree with that either. An officer should do as thorough an investigation as possible within reason and before letting victims/witnesses/and suspects go anywhere. We were there over 45 minutes. Since there were unrelated witnesses who told the officer exactly what they saw and these witnesses did not know me from Adam, I guess there wasn't too much in question. Remember that, among other things, the suspect was drunk, unlicensed, illegal, carrying false ID, and admitted that he was leaving the scene because he didn't "want to get in trouble." The totality of the circumstances is what the officer has to rely on, not that "Goatdog is an ex-coworker, so he must be right."

  I worked several incidents where firearms were actually discharged, people were shot, and took the report at the scene. In 1985 in Kansas, a young man did a home invasion on my first wife and I. He ended up on the living room floor with #6 game loads from a Mossberg 20 ga in his chest (he was in the hospital for 3 weeks, but fully recovered).  The responding deputies took the report at my coffee table and got 10-8. I received a summons to court about six months later and he pleaded guilty. Paid restitution for my broken door and stereo.

Finally;
"After thinking about this, and not knowing what city/state you were in, I was wondering to what degree do you think you got the pass from the responding officer because she knew you, rather than busting you for "brandishing", or even "ADW"? I'm thinking most of us would get busted to be sorted out at the station. Your thoughts?"

I don't feel a "pass" was involved at all. I've had the distasteful duty of arresting other officers in my same agency for DUI and Domestic Assault. I even had to take in a respected officer for a drug charge. Do officers sometimes look the other way...hell yes they do, they have discretion granted by Federal, State, and Local laws. That discretion is not to be taken as a license to ignore non-cop victims. Being an ex-cop from that jurisdiction does not give me free reign to run around brandishing weapons or assaulting people. If you are falsely arrested, you have a lawsuit that you can win. The officer is smart to "secure" the scene, but to hastily snatch up a law abiding citizen, arrest him/her and take them downtown would be career suicide.

I know that some of you may have doubts about what I just wrote. Just remember this; I refuse to be a victim and always will. If the courts later determine that I was wrong at least I was alive to be told so. Learn these words and you will do yourself a lot of good. "I was in fear for my life and the lives of my loved ones." Everyone has a different point where we recognize danger, I know that a car will flat out mangle a human being...I need no further justification in my head.

"Now for the sad part.

He will be out on bail. Not show up to court, And stay in the country untill he kills someone. Then this will repeat it self. "


This part is SO TRUE. The court system is broken. Badly. At least that night he would not be able to hurt anyone else.

I am not offended by any of your valued opinions, I just want you to know, at least in my old jurisdiction, we couldn't get away with that kind of blatant favoritism. The CALEA cerification would have been pulled and it would tarnish the agencies image. Again, television hasn't helped this kind of misperception.

Finally, do I second-guess my actions? Yes. I always replay any action in my head and with others who may be involved. That is how we get better and learn to not do the wrong thing over and over again.


And had I thought of it Pathfinder, yes I might have said "No se mueva or I will keel you!"

Thanks for the adult level discussion and allowing me to explain my POV.

Goatdog
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 05:06:33 AM by Goatdog62 »

Offline TexDaddy

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2009, 11:38:57 PM »
I would be afraid to pull a gun on someone unless I was sure that they had a gun also, lest they say I used excessive force, and that I should have retreated.
First off, hats off to Goatdog62. An American hero, for sure.  Second, IMHO, no one should ever carry a firearm if they would EVER be afraid to use it to protect themself or their loved ones.
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Offline Sister Wolf

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2009, 11:51:23 PM »
Goatdog, having brothers (and little trouble makers at that), I cannot count how many times they were put in cuffs "for the safety of everybody involved" until the whole situation was sorted out.  And almost every time (save twice), they were uncuffed after the situation was identified, and told to go on their merry way.  I was there for several of those cuffings.  I was never cuffed, even though I was participating in all activities that got the boys cuffed in every situation where I was present for the cops arriving.  So whether or not that is considered "arrested" is another story, I suppose, but they CAN and DO put people in cuffs on a regular basis and then uncuff them and send them off.


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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2009, 12:02:24 AM »
Thanks for sharing Goatdog, glad everything turned out good for you and yours.

Offline PistolWhipped

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2009, 12:11:30 AM »
While they cannot "unarrest" someone, you can certainly be detained by an officer if neccessary.  As it seems GD was.

Quote
We were there over 45 minutes.

Also, I'll thank Goatdog for helping me realize that a car can be a sufficient "weapon" to allow drawing a weapon.  I had really never actually considered that an option, drawing down on a potentially dangerous motorist using a vehicle as a weapon.   I see where that could definitely have come back to bite me in the ass.  Learn something new everyday.

Offline swanson

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2009, 02:05:12 AM »
Just some more thoughts...

Upon reviewing the comments thus far I am reminded that it is not only our physical survival that everyone must have a plan for when confronted with deadly danger, but it is crucial to have a plan for our 'legal' and 'emotional' survival as well.

Every incident has telling effects that can often ripple out into the legal system and in some cases cause real emotional concerns for those involved and their families in the long term. This is not always the case, but I have seen this play out more than once.

I believe that part of our training and planning for survival when confronting violence must address these topics in depth as well as the carriage and use of firearms.


swanson
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 02:47:00 AM by swanson »

Goatdog62

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2009, 05:14:52 AM »
Goatdog, having brothers (and little trouble makers at that), I cannot count how many times they were put in cuffs "for the safety of everybody involved" until the whole situation was sorted out.  And almost every time (save twice), they were uncuffed after the situation was identified, and told to go on their merry way.  I was there for several of those cuffings.  I was never cuffed, even though I was participating in all activities that got the boys cuffed in every situation where I was present for the cops arriving.  So whether or not that is considered "arrested" is another story, I suppose, but they CAN and DO put people in cuffs on a regular basis and then uncuff them and send them off.

Cuffing someone is not arresting someone, I wasn't clear on that (again TV gets the proper blame here). I have cuffed plenty of people if a scene was still unstable in my eyes. I've even placed them in the backseat of the cruiser. The courts only allow this detention to last long enough to render the scene safe. That would not have been justified in this case as I had put away the firearm before the officers arrival, there was no current struggle taking place, and plenty of bystander witnesses were present and immediately giving feedback.

I thought I was pretty clear that the officer has his/her safety to consider FIRST. Sorry if that was misunderstood. Every situation, EVERY situation, is different. Second guessing the officer is easy to do, but seconds are all the time they are usually given to make decisions on hot calls.

Goatdog62

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2009, 05:25:49 AM »
I have never had CCW training. Tennessee allows former LEO to bypass the normally mandatory CCW training because it is assumed (and well-documented) that they know a deadly force situation when they see one. I feel like I do. My academy training alone was 27 weeks, not to mention the in-service training and other schools. Then theres the years of street experience to boot. I have a lot of Federal deadly force training/certification or you can rest assured I would not have been allowed to carry around POTUS, U.S. Ambassador, Sec State, and other upper .gov folks.

Anyone who gets a CCW needs to pay attention in CCW training and make sure they are aware of their state laws on the issue. Laws change all the time also. TN made several positive changes in the past few months.

Am I capable of a mistake? Hell yes I am. I take my decisions seriously.

Offline punkndisorderly

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2009, 06:12:36 AM »
Had I been in the same situation, I have a feeling it would have went very different, and likely very badly for me. I wouldn't be at all suprised to end up in jail for the evening. I came very close to going to jail for dropping a cigarrette butt on the sidewalk in front of my place of business. And no, I wasn't being a jerk to the officer. He was simply out of control and was fired by the time the matter went to court (dismissed). Around here, it seems like police go a little overboard as far as detaining/arresting people, then make sure the matter goes to court to justify their overreaction. If a minority of any type is involved, this is even more likley and they will make sure it goes to court to quell the discontent of organizations like LULAC and the NAACP and Al Sharpton style community activists like Quannel X.

Also, since I don't speak Spanish, I doubt that he would have stopped. Either I would have been been run over or he would have been shot (or both). If he ever showed up to court, he would tell the story of the crazy gringo that was pointing a gun at him and he ran over me in self defense.


Offline Sister Wolf

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Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2009, 01:39:57 PM »
I thought I was pretty clear that the officer has his/her safety to consider FIRST. Sorry if that was misunderstood. Every situation, EVERY situation, is different. Second guessing the officer is easy to do, but seconds are all the time they are usually given to make decisions on hot calls.

No, you made it crystal clear, goaty.  I just misunderstood, and wasn't terribly clear on definitions.  :)  I'm sorry.


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