Author Topic: At Gunpoint...  (Read 8871 times)

Offline Klapton

  • BANNED
  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 459
  • Karma: 45
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2009, 02:53:26 PM »
Learn these words and you will do yourself a lot of good. "I was in fear for my life and the lives of my loved ones."

I too am very glad to hear that you and your family are safe.  I'm a firm believer that it is the responsibility of EVERY decent human being to fight crime.  (I.e. the "real" crimes that have victims - not the ones invented to generate revenue for the state.)  There was a time in our country where this responsibility, like the right to keep and bear arms, was not questioned and was considered to be natural, decent common sense.  Here's a well-researched article on the history of law enforcement in America:  http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

I think this advice is important enough that it should be repeated.  There are several "magic words" when dealing with law enforcement depending on the situation, and everyone would do well to know what they are.  For example:  "I do not consent to any search."  "Am I being detained, or am I free to go?"  "Please articulate your reasonable suspicion for detaining me."  And above all, the most important words to know about when dealing with a negative LEO encounter is NOTHING - i.e. SILENCE.  If there is anyone here who has never seen the video series "Don't Talk To The Police" I strongly recommend it.  In this video, a law professor passes along this sage advice from one of our Supreme Court Justices of the past.  "Don't Talk to the Police" by Professor James Duane


Offline Dan

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 977
  • Karma: 41
  • MSB Founding Member
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2009, 03:46:39 PM »
Good job, I’m glad it turned out well. It sounds as though everyone did  as they are supposed to with the obvious exception of the numskull that caused the situation to begin with.

Thumbs up and a + karma to you my friend.
"Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"
"Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it."
Virgil's Aeneid, Book VI

Offline OJ

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
  • Karma: 18
    • Big O Gunleather
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2009, 08:18:23 PM »
My 4 girls all had to see Dad in action for the first, and hopefully last, time.

Both of my daughters are now grown and gone, and I'm glad that they NEVER got to see my "game face".

I hope that my wife never does, either.


Glad that you're all safe and that all went fairly well.

Offline ColdHaven

  • Coldylocks
  • Moderator On Leave
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3462
  • Karma: 174
  • How about a scary crow little fire?
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2009, 08:31:21 PM »
Goatdog, I wasn't trying to pin you in a corner or question your motives or the motives of the police involved. I wanted to learn by asking more indepth questions. I have never been through this before and I would like an idea of what to expect so that I react appropriately. For example, I did not realize that cuffing was not the same as arresting. I hope you didn't feel like I was trying to make it out like you did something wrong in all of this. I think you did the right thing, but I wanted to learn from what happened too. Like what is considered 'put away' to police? Is it holstered, or far from your reach without bullets in it? I know you can't say for definite because it is different from state to state, but I just wanted to know your take on it.  Thanks for the info. It helped clarify some things for me.

Klapton, that was very informative. +1 Is there a link to the other side of the story?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 09:00:56 PM by ColdHaven »

Offline Pathfinder

  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1995
  • Karma: 90
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2009, 09:56:51 PM »
Goatdog, I wasn't trying to pin you in a corner or question your motives or the motives of the police involved. I wanted to learn by asking more indepth questions. I have never been through this before and I would like an idea of what to expect so that I react appropriately. For example, I did not realize that cuffing was not the same as arresting. I hope you didn't feel like I was trying to make it out like you did something wrong in all of this. I think you did the right thing, but I wanted to learn from what happened too. Like what is considered 'put away' to police? Is it holstered, or far from your reach without bullets in it? I know you can't say for definite because it is different from state to state, but I just wanted to know your take on it.  Thanks for the info. It helped clarify some things for me.

Klapton, that was very informative. +1 Is there a link to the other side of the story?

The second part of the tape is a police sergeant who basically says the same thing - don't talk to the cops because they are looking for anything, any slip up or discrepancy to hang you on. His point is that if you say X at one point, and then later say Y, well, guess what? You just lied in an official police investigation and they can hang you on that alone.

Best advice came from Mas Ayoob and others, is to give the basics and then STFU! If the police have what they need, but want you to talk more, then tell them you are emotionally distraught, you were in fear for your life, you were trying to stop the person who attacked you, and that you will meet them at the police station at 9AM tomorrow. And be there! With your lawyer. The lawyer will talk on your behalf, taking the emotion out of things and making sure that the law is followed and you are not jeopardized.
I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these to others, and I require the same from them.

J.B. Books



Goatdog62

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2009, 10:20:09 PM »
Goatdog, I wasn't trying to pin you in a corner or question your motives or the motives of the police involved. I wanted to learn by asking more indepth questions. I have never been through this before and I would like an idea of what to expect so that I react appropriately. For example, I did not realize that cuffing was not the same as arresting. I hope you didn't feel like I was trying to make it out like you did something wrong in all of this. I think you did the right thing, but I wanted to learn from what happened too. Like what is considered 'put away' to police? Is it holstered, or far from your reach without bullets in it? I know you can't say for definite because it is different from state to state, but I just wanted to know your take on it.  Thanks for the info. It helped clarify some things for me.

Klapton, that was very informative. +1 Is there a link to the other side of the story?

No Coldhaven, I know you and SW and Pathfinder and everyone were making valid comments. I LOVE discussions where everybody presents opinions and questions and nobody gets their shorts all knotted up. I answered your questions from my point of view. I am not offended by your reasonable questions at all.

I will be the first to admit that cops are not robots and aren't programmed to make the same response across the board to every situation. You would do very well to make sure you can articulate your circumstances clearly to any responding officer AFTER he/she has secured the scene enough to listen to you. I have rolled up on 15 - 20 persons fighting in the streets and we are a little too busy to figure out the aggressor vs the victims at first. It all gets sorted out eventually. As much as it may upset you to be yelled at to turn around and put your hands behind your back, it is far better than arguing/noncomplying and making the cop think you are on the wrong side.

Klapton has a point on being quiet. A cop only has to read you your rights if he believes you are a suspect and he is directly questioning you about the allegation. I read less than a handful of rights on the scene, it just isn't like the movies. One warning on Klaptons advice as stated "Please articulate your reasonable suspicion for detaining me."   A cop where I'm from does not have to hold court on the side of the road with you. It isn't even smart to do so. Only the judge, period, can make you present evidence. Not even a police supervisor can order an arrest or order an officer not to arrest. The sworn officer has to make the call. Misdemeanor - only if he witnessed it and in most cases he has discretion, exceptions being domestic assault and DUI. Felony - must make arrest if he can determine PC.

If you ask "Am I being detained, or am I free to go?"  , he should tell you. If he says you are detained, that is not an arrest but you can make it one by trying to leave at that point.

Also remember that you have to answer some questions or you can be arrested in many jurisdictions. These would be administrative questions i.e name, SSN, DOB, etc. They cannot be related to the alleged crime. Lying on admin questions is a crime (criminal impersonation) in TN. Sometimes, if you feel that your predicament can be helped (sped along) and you are sure you have no exposure, it may be a good idea to answer questions. He/she has discretion and is authorized to make a decision to let you go on the spot. Completely buttoning up will likely mean a lengthy investigation, usually based completely on the story of the side that does talk, and this could mean a night at the station for you.

You can do what you want. I advise having a very friendly demeanor with an officer. They are human, they recognize aggression and react to it the same way that you would. The old vinegar vs honey argument will always apply to 90% of the sworn officers out there. Every group has their 10% that are jerkoffs, I don't care if you're a cowboy or a clergyman.

Now the good news. I called my insurance company and reported the damage to my rear bumper. If it had been a hit and run with no physical person to place blame on, I would have had to pay the deductible. Because the suspect was in custody and charged with the accident, the deductible is waived. That saves me a few hundred $.

Thanks for listening.

Goatdog :)

Hare of Caerbannog

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2009, 10:39:30 PM »

...Now the good news. I called my insurance company and reported the damage to my rear bumper. If it had been a hit and run with no physical person to place blame on, I would have had to pay the deductible. Because the suspect was in custody and charged with the accident, the deductible is waived. That saves me a few hundred $.

Thanks for listening.

Goatdog :)

WOOT!
No cash outlay is always a happy ending.
GoatDude, I always listen to every word you type.

Maybe this was already covered, but avoid sudden moves and keep your hands where the officer can see them at all times.
Not every LEO is perfectly comfortable in every situation.
I'm a kind of big guy (6', 250lbs) with a full beard and cranial hair all at terminal length. The last thing I want to do is raise my voice to a cop, make a sudden move, or act in any way that they may translate to be aggressive. The last thing I ever want to do is make a cop feel they need to take action against me.
Even if you are 100% right and the cop is 100% wrong, let the lawyers take care of that later.
Arguing with a cop at the scene is like punching a gorilla. There's just no up side.


edited for speeling

Goatdog62

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2009, 10:42:23 PM »
WOOT!
No cash outlay is always a happy ending.
GoatDude, I always listen to every word you type.

Maybe this was already covered, but avoid sudden moves and keep your hands where the officer can see them at all times.
Not every LEO is perfectly comfortable in every situation.
I'm a kind of big guy (6', 250lbs) with a full beard and cranial hair all at terminal length. The last thing I want to do is raise my voice to a cop, make a sudden move, or act in any way that they may translate to be aggressive. The last thing I ever want to do is make a cop feel they need to take action against me.
Even if you are 100% right and the cop is 100% wrong, let the lawyers take care of that later.
Arguing with a cop at the scene is like punching a gorilla. There's just no up side.


edited for speeling

Perfect advice Hare. The calm guy gets the least attention. Let the other guy look like the ass clown.

Offline Patriot:Ex Machina

  • Administrator Emeritus
  • Administrator
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2755
  • Karma: 140
  • Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium
    • Patriot Gun & Gear
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2009, 10:47:40 PM »
Dude, I'm glad you and your family were okay.
In a situation like that, you never know what someone like that will do.
Props to ya, bro.
 
 My Blog:
http://patriotgunandgear.blogspot.com/
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
Robert A. Heinlein

"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with until you understand who is in charge."
Jayne from "Firefly"


_________

Goatdog62

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2009, 10:50:34 PM »
Dude, I'm glad you and your family were okay.
In a situation like that, you never know what someone like that will do.
Props to ya, bro.

You just hit 800 posts. +1 for no particular reason at all.  ;D

Offline Patriot:Ex Machina

  • Administrator Emeritus
  • Administrator
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 2755
  • Karma: 140
  • Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium
    • Patriot Gun & Gear
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2009, 10:55:13 PM »
Wow, I had not noticed that. Cool!  :)
 
 My Blog:
http://patriotgunandgear.blogspot.com/
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
Robert A. Heinlein

"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with until you understand who is in charge."
Jayne from "Firefly"


_________

Offline Heavy G

  • Distorting the Space-Time Continuum
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 6785
  • Karma: 307
  • A misfit ant in a grasshopper world.
    • 299 Days
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2009, 12:07:58 PM »
From this thread and a previous one about the Explorer Scouts, I have changed my mind about cops.  I've seen some bad stuff (no injuries, just jerkiness) and had a bad attitude about them.

Then I read the thoughts of Bailey and Goatdog on those two threads, and the posts from others.  I think I now have a more realistic and balanced view of cops.  Some bad, most good.  I don't assume a person with a badge is a saint--but I don't assume they're the devil.

Thanks to Bailey and Goatdog.

You might be interested in the ten-book prepper novel series called 299 Days.  I, like, wrote it and stuff.  Prepper Press is publishing it.  Seriously.  Check out www.299Days.com.

"If you pissed away your time and energy watching football and herding the family to endless soccer games, well, sorry grasshopper." -- post by jasonthomas on TSP

Offline The Wilderness

  • The Patriarch of Lunatics
  • Administrator
  • Dedicated Contributor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1612
  • Karma: 510
    • The Umbafa Chronicles
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2009, 02:25:30 PM »
From this thread and a previous one about the Explorer Scouts, I have changed my mind about cops.  I've seen some bad stuff (no injuries, just jerkiness) and had a bad attitude about them.

Then I read the thoughts of Bailey and Goatdog on those two threads, and the posts from others.  I think I now have a more realistic and balanced view of cops.  Some bad, most good.  I don't assume a person with a badge is a saint--but I don't assume they're the devil.

Thanks to Bailey and Goatdog.

I second your opinion.

TW


Goatdog62

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2009, 07:06:56 PM »
From this thread and a previous one about the Explorer Scouts, I have changed my mind about cops.  I've seen some bad stuff (no injuries, just jerkiness) and had a bad attitude about them.

Then I read the thoughts of Bailey and Goatdog on those two threads, and the posts from others.  I think I now have a more realistic and balanced view of cops.  Some bad, most good.  I don't assume a person with a badge is a saint--but I don't assume they're the devil.

Thanks to Bailey and Goatdog.

Thanks Heavy G. Very kind comments.

I'll ignore that donkeys complaints about you. ;D

homeshow

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2009, 07:12:37 PM »
cops aren't evil. retired cops who train other cops and have a dead terrorist profile picture are the evil ones! ;D

Goatdog62

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2009, 07:16:37 PM »
cops aren't evil. retired cops who train other cops and have a dead terrorist profile picture are the evil ones! ;D

Not me...I'm retired Army, I quit the PD when I decided making enough money to eat was conducive to my health.

Besides, we can only call him "an alleged dead terrorist." You wouldn't want to hurt his feelings.

Offline Sister Wolf

  • The Tiffanator
  • Administrator On Leave
  • Ultimate Survival Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 11965
  • Karma: 362
  • Wanna have an adventure?
    • WilderWolf
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2009, 07:17:57 PM »
is he allegedly dead, or allegedly a terrorist?


All TSP Members get a 20% discount on any paid membership at Equip 2 Endure! Just enter coupon code "tspforum" (without the quotation marks) to start saving today!

Offline ColdHaven

  • Coldylocks
  • Moderator On Leave
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3462
  • Karma: 174
  • How about a scary crow little fire?
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2009, 07:21:09 PM »
I could see an arguement for both.

Offline JakeRyan

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 19
  • Karma: 0
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2009, 07:34:32 PM »
Goatdog. Go Big Orange! I miss knoxville it is a good town.

Offline RichStillinWyo

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: 1
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2009, 12:59:25 AM »
GoatDog
First off, good to hear that you and your's are safe and sound.

This was a good and well discussed situation, a real learning time.  One thing everyone needs to keep in mind [and it was touched on]  cops as with all other professions have to get their staff from the human race which is flawed.

Offline Hoxbar

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Karma: 2
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2009, 09:50:59 AM »
 
  Anyway, I wanted to let everyone know why I carry all the time. The other day someone asked me if I was armed at my daughters wedding. I said yes. They then said "Why? Were you expecting trouble?" I said "No, if I was expecting trouble I wouldn't have went. When I'm not expecting trouble, I go armed."
(modified for spelling by Goatdog)

I love this. Can I use this?

Offline Heavy G

  • Distorting the Space-Time Continuum
  • Global Moderator
  • Survival Veteran
  • ******
  • Posts: 6785
  • Karma: 307
  • A misfit ant in a grasshopper world.
    • 299 Days
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2009, 10:16:51 AM »

I love this. Can I use this?


I'm guessing so because Homeshow uses it in his signature line.  It's a classic.

You might be interested in the ten-book prepper novel series called 299 Days.  I, like, wrote it and stuff.  Prepper Press is publishing it.  Seriously.  Check out www.299Days.com.

"If you pissed away your time and energy watching football and herding the family to endless soccer games, well, sorry grasshopper." -- post by jasonthomas on TSP

Offline ncjeeper

  • Most Noble Order of the Garter Snake
  • Survival Demonstrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 4068
  • Karma: 93
  • Oooops!
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2009, 10:49:06 AM »
While they cannot "unarrest" someone, you can certainly be detained by an officer if neccessary.  As it seems GD was.

Also, I'll thank Goatdog for helping me realize that a car can be a sufficient "weapon" to allow drawing a weapon.  I had really never actually considered that an option, drawing down on a potentially dangerous motorist using a vehicle as a weapon.   I see where that could definitely have come back to bite me in the ass.  Learn something new everyday.
Yes you can unarrest someone. I have done it before. Example. Lets say you are out in public hanging out at a quickee mart and I pull up in my police car and engage you in a conversation. I tell you the clerk felt uneasy about your presence and called 911. You tell me your name and date of birth. I check you for warrants. The dispatcher tells me that you have an outstanding warrant for your arrest. I tell that to you and cuff you and transport you to jail. Well half way down to jail the dispatcher tells me that the warrant was for a black male with the same name and date of birth as you, but your a white male. Well now I know longer have probable cause and I transport you back to where I met you and release you (unarrest you).

Another example. You are in a store shoplifting and you get caught.  You are in cuffs in the back of my car and I am filling out the paper work getting ready to take you downtown. Well the store employee has a change of heart because they got their merchandise back and they really dont want to come to court so they change their mind and dont want to prosecute. So now I unarrest you and send you on your way.
The early bird gets the worm.....But the second mouse gets the cheese.

Goatdog62

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2009, 09:52:46 PM »
In TN, neither of those two cases would be possible if the officer was using any of the due diligence afforded him. My original intent was on the officer being the affimation on the warrant anyway. We were very specifically told by the AG to "NEVER" unarrest someone that we were swearing to the warrant on. A charge had to be Nolle Prossed to be dropped.

On the warrant case you listed, we had to confirm through SSN and/or several other identifiers. If the subject had no ID and lied, giving a SSN that didn't match, then he was charged with criminal impersonation and hauled in for that. When the jailhouse eventually figured out his true identity, they would serve the warrant on him. We were never to arrest on outstanding warrants without 100% confirmation. Sometimes, like seeing if another state would extradite, this could take hours. Sometimes, you had to let a guy walk. Better than being sued.

On the second case, all our stores had a written policy on prosecuting or not. This was filed at county and they were held to it. We were only transporters on shoplifters unless we happened to be present when store security was chasing them and we assisted. So we never made an arrest on shoplifters.

Unarresting someone was a quick way to get suspended or fired. Detaining someone, pending investigation, was the way to do it.

I realize things are different elsewhere.

homeshow

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2009, 10:40:02 AM »
I'm guessing so because Homeshow uses it in his signature line.  It's a classic.

true i "might" have asked for permission after i posted it.  besides it's not like GD knows where i live.

Offline Serellan

  • REMF
  • Moderator On Leave
  • Dedicated Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 1581
  • Karma: 97
  • Diligenter et Fideliter
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2009, 01:40:58 PM »
I had an almost exact likeness of the tactical situation back when I was young, dumb, and carried a badge and a gun.

Working a checkpoint I had a "simple" stop equipment violation.  Guy thought he had a warrant (turns out the dumbass didn't), so he decided to turn a traffic ticket into a ADW charge.  While I was standing in the open running his info, he backed up his white 80's buick, put it in gear and came at me.  I didn't have anywhere to go as I was boxed in between parked cars, I drew down and ordered him out of the vehicle.

Luckily (for him and me), while he was going through the mental excercise of getting ready to run me down (I could see it in his body language), and I was getting ready to shoot him, another officer approached from the side and dragged him out of the car window by his hair.

It was a close call, one that is burned in my memory, it was the first time I had ever drawn down with the clear possibility of having to fire.

"There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights."

-Major General Smedley Butler, USMC

Goatdog62

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2009, 06:57:50 PM »
In 2001 Serellan, in circumstances similar, I was forced to shoot through a windshield and kill a felon. It was the only decision to make that involved me surviving. That doesn't mean I don't think about it once in a while.

Offline Dan

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 977
  • Karma: 41
  • MSB Founding Member
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2009, 07:46:10 PM »
Better him than you. I don’t mean to sound like it’s something to take lightly, it’s not, but I am glad you are skilled enough to ensure your safe return to your family.
"Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito"
"Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it."
Virgil's Aeneid, Book VI

Goatdog62

  • Guest
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2009, 07:59:43 PM »
Thanks Dan. His truck ended up less than 12' away. The rookie I was training, having graduated the academy five days prior, definitely had a moment of clarity that evening also.

Offline Serellan

  • REMF
  • Moderator On Leave
  • Dedicated Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 1581
  • Karma: 97
  • Diligenter et Fideliter
Re: At Gunpoint...
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2009, 01:53:27 AM »
In 2001 Serellan, in circumstances similar, I was forced to shoot through a windshield and kill a felon. It was the only decision to make that involved me surviving. That doesn't mean I don't think about it once in a while.

Yep, I had made the same decision, he is lucky that he is alive, I'm lucky that I didn't have to shoot him.   That moment helped me mature a lot because I learned that I truly don't ever WANT to take a human life, but if I need to, I will.  When I hear the internet cowboys talk smack, I just chuckle and think back to that moment.

Thanks for your service, GD.
"There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights."

-Major General Smedley Butler, USMC