At Gunpoint...

[Orionblade]

I already spoke with you about this, GD, but I figured I'd put my .02 in on the forum here.

As far as shooting someone attemtping to do me serious/deadly harm, I have no hesitation, but I spent alot of time prior to getting my Concealed Handgun Permit preparing for that eventuality. I know I will NOT be OK after such an encounter.

My prime example is this: I had to put my dog down. MY dog. He wasn't a human, but he was entrusted to me to take care of, and all that emotional baggage comes to bear when I had to end his life and his suffering. That's just the thing though, it was MY decision, I carried him to the vet, and we did it.

I was NOT ok.

I did it, but I was NOT ok. I still think about THAT, so to think that I or anyone else can cowboy up and blow away a bad guy without remorse or regret is ludicrous. I applaud your actions and respect your decision, and I am infinitely happy for you that it turned out OK without shots fired. Mostly directed at readers of this thread is a bit of reason and a good hearty smack upside the head when anyone gets to thinking it would be cool, awesome, or otherwise a positive experience to be involved in the situation, no matter the outcome.

I think of it like this: I'll choose my life over his, but at the end of the day somebody's mother is going to be in tears.

If it weighs on you with all that training to back up your decision as right and proper, I can't imagine what it would do to me with my current level or lack of training.

*makes a note to sign up for a gunsite class*

Just to be clear before I sign off, I'm not at all ridiculing the use of firearms in any of the mentioned scenarios, just underscoring the difference between hesitation and regret in the use of firearms in resolving a conflict.

I just kicked a guy from my bug out group for being a cowboy, so these thoughts have been weighing heavily on my mind for the past couple of weeks.

Orion

[bubtech]

Orion,
In my opinion that is the attitude one SHOULD have to get a permit.  I will protect myself and loved ones but I will feel like total S@#@#@ for killing the dude.  Better him than me, but I won't be happy about it.
B

[donaldj]

As far as shooting someone attempting to do me serious/deadly harm, I have no hesitation, but I spent a lot of time prior to getting my Concealed Handgun Permit preparing for that eventuality. I know I will NOT be OK after such an encounter.

My prime example is this: I had to put my dog down. MY dog. He wasn't a human, but he was entrusted to me to take care of, and all that emotional baggage comes to bear when I had to end his life and his suffering. That's just the thing though, it was MY decision, I carried him to the vet, and we did it.

I was NOT ok.

I did it, but I was NOT ok. I still think about THAT, so to think that I or anyone else can cowboy up and blow away a bad guy without remorse or regret is ludicrous.

My take on this... your dog was your loyal companion and trusted friend. Putting him down was hard because he was a family member.

Now, some jerk off the street is attacking your family.. someone who is a human being and should know better... 

I think you'll have a lot less remorse than you think.



The most recent example that made me think about this was that ass hat at Walmart or wherever. He was in the news because some lady's kid was crying. He verbally warned her to make the kid stop crying, then went up and smacked the kid around.  Yes, it really happened.

Now, had I been there, or had it been my kid, that guy would not walk out of that store. I would have seriously messed that guy up, and he would have serious injuries for the rest of his life. I'm not even sure how long "the rest of his life" would be. You don't mess with a kid like that. You sure as hell don't mess with MY kid like that.

The only remorse I would have is what legal troubles this ass hat brought my way after the incident.


Point is, we're talking about someone intent on doing you or your loved ones harm. They have chosen this course as thinking, rationalizing human adults. If they go about these actions, they deserve what they got coming. I know the after-the-event trauma is going to play guilt on people, but if it's justified, be rest assured your sense of protectiveness over your loved ones is going to override your remorse.

[Orionblade]

Surely I feel worse about my dog than I would about a bad guy, but my point was that this fellow was acting as though he'd have no more remorse than if he'd swatted a fly. Get real.

The guy with the kid-slapping event should get a few nights in a cell with Bubba. I bet he's got a real pretty mouth.


I really didn't need that cowboy mentality in my life, but it did get me thinking a bit harder about the after-effects of self defense.

There's also some talk about post-SHTF and intruders on the property and such. Really not sure how I'd handle myself.

I appreciate GD's relaying of the story, every real life situation provides a valuable learning experience for all of us.

[urban_dweller]

GD,

I'm glad this situation ended in a favorable outcome for all, including the BG who could have gotten shot instead of just arrested.

In the original post, you mentioned that you had a S&W Model 642.  How confident are you that a 38 will do it's job through a windshield.  I know that that's all you had and made the best of it.  I'm just interested in your opinion and by no means wish to derail this conversation into a caliber war.

Thank you for all the insightful comments.

[Goatdog62]

GD,

I'm glad this situation ended in a favorable outcome for all, including the BG who could have gotten shot instead of just arrested.

In the original post, you mentioned that you had a S&W Model 642.  How confident are you that a 38 will do it's job through a windshield.  I know that that's all you had and made the best of it.  I'm just interested in your opinion and by no means wish to derail this conversation into a caliber war.

Thank you for all the insightful comments.

Fair question.
1. I've been involved in some extensive testing/evaluating of weapons for adoption purposes by various agencies. Any of the defensive calibers will penetrate normal car and truck doors (usually through one and out the other) and any normal auto glass, tempered or not, laminated or not.

2. Even if I didn't know that or not, it is extremely doubtful the BG would have any idea whether it would work or not and he'd have been in that classic Dirty Harry moment wondering if the round would penetrate or not. He'd have lost. The business end of a .38 pointed at you always look like a cannon. I never interviewed the victim of an armed robbery that said the gun used was "small and not very frightening."

3. As you already noted, it was all I had. I have never felt undergunned with a .38 or a 9mm, or a 5.56 when in a combat environment. They are proven and have always worked when I needed them to.

In 2001 I was forced to fire a GLOCK 17 at about 8 - 10 meters through the windshield of a box van driven by a felon. He was hit in the forehead and died.

Anyone who fires through slanted auto glass with pistol caliber ammunition should know that the deflection is normally opposite what you think it should be. For instance; when firing at the windshield from directly in front of it, the round will deflect downward, not up. If sitting in the car firing through the windshield, the round will uward, not down. The more powerful the round, the less deflection there is. So if you carry a .338 Lapua, you shouldn't worry about the glass much. 

[Spamity Calamity]

Well I guess I get to be the forum ass clown again...

First let me state Im happy to hear that you are safe and that youre family is safe too. We would definately miss you on the TSP forum. And also that drunk illegal guy that hit you deserves every bad thing coming to him and then some.

but....

You stated that you pulled your weapon because you perceived you were in danger of being hurt/killed but you also acknowledged that he was just trying to get around you to flee the scene because he didnt want to get into trouble. Something about this (and I cant articulate why) just doesnt sit right with me. I guess life is just a big ass gray area.

I do have a legitimate question though. In these situations how much weight is put on your perception of danger from a legal standpoint? Because it seems to me from your posts in this thread that it is alot. From the way you describe it  the use of deadly force is easily justified because the person felt they were in danger. Am I right on this? If I am right on this I have a second question.

Do you think a LEO's perception of danger is worth more in court than a civilian's? That is to say if a law enforcement officer says he shot someone because he feared for his life and a civilian shot someone because he feared for his life, they would be treated the same?

PS my wife was reading this post over my shoulder while I was typing and she wanted me to tell you "good job".

[Orionblade]

Last I checked, the muzzle velocity is higher on a .38, but pickups generally win in terms of permanent ballistic cavitation...

[Heavy G]

Do you think a LEO's perception of danger is worth more in court than a civilian's?

Hell yes.

[Goatdog62]

Another fair question.

I may not have articulated the circumstances correctly. It was fresher in my memory last year when it happened.

When I came out of my vehicle, to check on the other driver and the damage, the guy was pulling forward towards me. I reacted like I've been taught. I had nowhere to jump to but backpedaling was a possibility, it just didn't cross my mind. I have doubt that I would have been quick enough. I couldn't jump into the traffic (4th of July fireworks show traffic, remember). Yes, I would assume his original intent was to just go around my vehicle and leave the scene. He stopped when he saw me, but the hesitation in his eyes was clear to me. I drew my weapon, while he started forward and began turning the wheel even more sharply to get around me. He stopped when he saw the gun. I will say that from me getting out of my vehicle to him being stopped was about 3 - 4 seconds. I had the .38 in a pocket holster and it is the easiest/quickest thing to bring it into play.

I have no regrets.

Right or wrong, I would do it again. I had personal history on my side (2001 shooting) and many case histories that back up my position.

The standard is "fear for your life or the lives of others." I would also add "The ability to articulate that fear in court."

The standard is not different for a cop when it comes to identifying danger, in fact a LEO usually is expected to show more restraint. TN is self-defense friendly in comparison to most states.

[Orionblade]

Last I checked, the muzzle velocity is higher on a .38, but pickups generally win in terms of permanent ballistic cavitation...

I posted that from my blackberry - and somehow it selected and deleted the second part of the post, which pretty much follows as such:

"so I think you're pretty safe in the "fearing for your life" department when facing being run down by someone"

Now that I have a real keyboard I'll add that once a threat is identified, as far as the doctrine I've been taught, you can draw while attempting to retreat as best you can, but as a completely LEO experience free civilian, I'd be hard pressed in the same situation in this area, so I'd more or less get the hell out of the way while buying time with the firearm - i.e. once he paused, I'd be scooting and noting the license plate and be on the phone as soon as possible, but I can't see anything wrong with how GD's situation went down, whatever that's worth with my limited experience.

    I can also say, and again, take it with a grain of salt, that since I've been carrying, I've been quite a bit more calm when it comes to confrontations in general, especially after being mistaken for a police officer several times - mostly under the breath comments from scraggly looking groups of miscreants that scoot when they see the revolver on my right hip. I also generally wear slacks or nice jeans and a blazer, as well as aviator sunglasses, which is just how I dress for work... but it might contribute to the general assumption that the well dressed guy with a doberman is a LEO of some description.  I don't see any legal responsibility to notify those around me that I'm NOT a police officer unless I'm actually asked, and as long as Im not flashing a fake badge and actually attempting to put out that look. If I was in the same situation and the non-native-english-speaker assumed I was a poice officer, I wouldn't neccesarily be inclined to make him aware in his native language that I'm anything else until actual police officers were on scene.

 There's all sorts of variables in any situation, and second guessing is an easy game to play with someone else's experience, but picking it apart can be a good way to learn from it.

So here's my question - if I was the one about to be run over and simply requested that he exit the vehicle, would that be false arrest if I reholstered my handgun immediately, or would allowing him to assume I was a police officer qualify as some form or another of impersonating a police officer/etc. Assume at this point that I'm not laying a hand on him, and simply keeping my distance and requesting he remain outside of his vehicle and/or remove the keys from the switch and place them on the ground/hood for my own safety, and he's also not asked me in any direct way "eres un federale?"

[Goatdog62]

It's easy to say what you would do. In reality, few ever actually find out. Fewer still play it out the way they plan to. ALL relive it and wonder what they could/should have done differently.

A split-second decision that could have life-ending results. How's that for pressure?

[Spamity Calamity]

Another fair question.

I may not have articulated the circumstances correctly. It was fresher in my memory last year when it happened.

When I came out of my vehicle, to check on the other driver and the damage, the guy was pulling forward towards me. I reacted like I've been taught. I had nowhere to jump to but backpedaling was a possibility, it just didn't cross my mind. I have doubt that I would have been quick enough. I couldn't jump into the traffic (4th of July fireworks show traffic, remember). Yes, I would assume his original intent was to just go around my vehicle and leave the scene. He stopped when he saw me, but the hesitation in his eyes was clear to me. I drew my weapon, while he started forward and began turning the wheel even more sharply to get around me. He stopped when he saw the gun. I will say that from me getting out of my vehicle to him being stopped was about 3 - 4 seconds. I had the .38 in a pocket holster and it is the easiest/quickest thing to bring it into play.

I have no regrets.

Right or wrong, I would do it again. I had personal history on my side (2001 shooting) and many case histories that back up my position.

The standard is "fear for your life or the lives of others." I would also add "The ability to articulate that fear in court."

The standard is not different for a cop when it comes to identifying danger, in fact a LEO usually is expected to show more restraint. TN is self-defense friendly in comparison to most states.

Well I will give you the benefit of the doubt. It is what it is and I wasnt there and I dont have the same experience as you. So I will keep my opinions to myself. But thank you for opening my eyes about how a perception of danger could be used to justify lethal force. I wonder if there is a similar legal environment in Texas.  I will be getting my CCL soon so I will be sure to bring it up in the class if they do not cover that particular aspect of self defense.  This incident really makes me think how something like this could happen when you least expect it.

[Orionblade]

It's easy to say what you would do. In reality, few ever actually find out. Fewer still play it out the way they plan to. ALL relive it and wonder what they could/should have done differently.

A split-second decision that could have life-ending results. How's that for pressure?

Totally. Not a decision anyone should want to have to make. I hope you got that sentiment from the prior post, re: anyone can second guess vs. picking the situation apart to learn from it.

I'm thinking of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse right now - the engineers built a great bridge, but missed one little thing that nobody really would have thought about back then (there weren't PC's running finite element analysis with fluid dynamics modeling built in...) and the whole thing shook itself apart because of one oversight. Do you sit and bitch at the engineer about what you think he did wrong, or do you write a textbook about the whole case and teach future engineers how to think about engineering problems?

I choose the latter, and truly appreciate the info you share, and not just about this incident - your 505 project has given me so many ideas it's pathetic - I hope that's why we're all here - show off a bit, and help each other with the stuff we've already figured out while learning from everyone else's successes and failures, and "gray areas" - sounds like you performed as trained and handled the situation admirably, and as has already been mentioned - provided us with a good jumping off point for discussions with experienced firearms instructors.

Thanks again,
Orion

[Goatdog62]

I will add one thing Spamity Calamity. I appreciate your ability to recognize that you weren't there and it would be difficult to judge without knowing all details. I will say that as a cop responding to a "man with a gun" call, I never questioned anyone who defended themself from a criminal act. That car that the drunken, obviously a public danger, and illegal alien was driving in my incident is every bit a weapon, far more deadly than a gun, and few people understand that.

Things like this always happen when you least expect it. Otherwise you'd complete step 1 or 2 of the Personal Security guidelines for avoiding attacks. Ideally we;

1. Avoid

if that isn't working or things have developed while you were in condition white, then you would;

2. Evade

Finally, when all else fails;

3. Counter

[Spamity Calamity]

1. Avoid

if that isn't working or things have developed while you were in condition white, then you would;

2. Evade

Finally, when all else fails;

3. Counter

I must have internalized that already because that is what I always tell people when they ask me why I keep a gun in my car. I always say. "In case I cant get away."

[Goatdog62]

I must have internalized that already because that is what I always tell people when they ask me why I keep a gun in my car. I always say. "In case I cant get away."

Same reason I do.

[Orionblade]

That's a pretty simple philosophy.

AEC.

Sweet.

[joeinwv]

That's a tough situation GD. Thanks for sharing, I'm going to bump this again, as it is worth the read. Not enough detailed real world CCW stuff out there.

Overall, I think you did the right thing. However, I question my or most civilians ability to do the same.
- Military and LEO training have improved your SA
- Same training instills a 'hold your ground' mindset
- Result being, you are much quicker to 'go to your guns' and take control of the situation

I think I would have been slow. I would have been out of the car going WTF, while you are already assessing the driver and deciding to draw.

Good stuff, good to think about. Also, 99% of internet warriors would state the impossibility of a 9mm penetrating angled car glass. Minimally, you should have had at least a 357 sig to pull off that shot. j/k

Stay safe my friend and thanks for sharing.

[Goatdog62]

Thanks Joe. I do credit experience for my ways and situational awareness.

Now if I only had a real skill...

[Muddyboots]

Well done! Good observations and discussion, Goatdog.

I especially like this gem:

The other day someone asked me if I was armed at my daughters wedding. I said yes. They then said "Why? Were you expecting trouble?" I said "No, if I was expecting trouble I wouldn't have went. When I'm not expecting trouble, I go armed."


Muddyboots

[tween]

yep, he only got away with it because of his cop contacts, and because the guy was so far out of line. Had it been Joe Average doing the driving, the gun waver would have gone to prison.

[Heavy G]

Watch it, tween.  OK, watch it.

You've been spouting off a lot lately.  Don't go after cops like that. 

[PistolWhipped]

Watch it, tween.  OK, watch it.

You've been spouting off a lot lately.  Don't go after cops Decent Guys like that.

Fixed.

[Patriot:Ex Machina]

And Tween's days here at TSP are now over.
It's bad enough that he was bashing LEO (and personally attacking Goatdog), but he started spouting off racist slurs in another thread.
He hath passed on into outer darkness.

[Bradbn4]

Thanks Joe. I do credit experience for my ways and situational awareness.

Now if I only had a real skill...

I know this happens some time ago - and the real skill is keeping cool, thinking thru your options, etc.

One question I would still have after all this time, was the person deported, go to ground, or...?

The best part about this thread is that it was good food for thought - and it's always important to feed both our mind and soul.