Author Topic: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence  (Read 8313 times)

Offline SLOHomemaker

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Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« on: July 07, 2009, 02:50:59 PM »
On another prepper blog, there is a video of a criminal defense attorney telling you what to say to the police or any other authority figure.

What to say?

Nothing. Not a word. No matter what. Unless YOU have an attorney of your very own right there telling you what you can and cannot say. OR you get full immunity IN WRITING and the interview (questions AND answers) are video taped.

Even though JaNap and the Obamessiah want to dismantle it, there is still a Constitution with a Bill of Rights and the 5th Amendment says that you don't have to talk to law enforcement folks. Especially in CA. And if you just shot some SnailSnot piece o'crap that broke into your house/tried to rape you/tried to molest your kid/etc.

Remember the Miranda warning: Whatever you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. If you cannot afford an attorney, one can and will be appointed for you. And Right now, if you had the gun, you are guilty in Holder's eyes.

Something you can take to the bank in Kalifornia.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 01:08:44 AM by DeltaEchoVictor »

Goatdog62

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How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 06:11:56 PM »
On another prepper blog, there is a video of a criminal defense attorney telling you what to say to the police or any other authority figure.

What to say?

Nothing. Not a word. No matter what. Unless YOU have an attorney of your very own right there telling you what you can and cannot say. OR you get full immunity IN WRITING and the interview (questions AND answers) are video taped.

Even though JaNap and the Obamessiah want to dismantle it, there is still a Constitution with a Bill of Rights and the 5th Amendment says that you don't have to talk to law enforcement folks. Especially in CA. And if you just shot some SnailSnot piece o'crap that broke into your house/tried to rape you/tried to molest your kid/etc.

Remember the Miranda warning: Whatever you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. If you cannot afford an attorney, one can and will be appointed for you. And Right now, if you had the gun, you are guilty in Holder's eyes.

Something you can take to the bank in Kalifornia.

I cannot 100% agree that you should never say anything, but you are mostly on track IMHO. We are off topic here however. This thread is about kidnapping prevention and escaping from car trunks. Perhaps you might want to start a Miranda thread, I can join you there.

Welcome to TSP and we hope you enjoy it.

Goatdog

Offline SLOHomemaker

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How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 09:11:27 PM »
... You won't, and your story to the cops needs to say so. "You were in fear for your life and/or the life of others." Practice saying that and never forget to say it when asked.

Goatdog 
 

This is actually to what I was responding. It really is best to say nothing until your attorney is present, especially if you were savvy enough to have taken out the assailant.


But I will be happy to start a Miranda warning thread, if you would like to chat about it.

Goatdog62

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How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2009, 09:24:21 PM »
This is actually to what I was responding. It really is best to say nothing until your attorney is present, especially if you were savvy enough to have taken out the assailant.


But I will be happy to start a Miranda warning thread, if you would like to chat about it.

Even your lawyer will advise eventually getting your story to the cops (with his presence and coaching of course). Otherwise the case is one-sided and jurors really do question why someone who claims to be innocent delayed an investigation. I have been witness to this.

Still, it is WAY off the general subject. Let's move it.

Offline DeltaEchoVictor

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Re: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 01:08:23 AM »
Split this off from the other topic so you all could continue the discussion. ;)

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 12:06:40 PM »
I am glad this was split so I could ask some questions too. I know we were kind of talking about this on the thread I had started, but since this is more specific I will ask it here:

So when is the information you should share? I mean name, address, and information like that seems reasonable to tell an officer, but should you refrain from saying anything at all about the investigation? I know this is probably difficult to answer because it is not something that can be answered across the board, but I wanted to ask it to get some general idea of what to expect. As you can see our justice system if fully capable of condemning innocent people as it can criminals. *chuckle* Should it be like if you are caught by the enemy when you are a soldier? Name, rank, social security #? lol.  ;)

Offline DeltaEchoVictor

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 12:24:28 PM »
I think the severity of the incident will probably dictate, to some extent, the amount of information one gives freely.

To take the tact that you should say nothing at all when asked, I'm relatively certain, will land you in hotter water than being polite & cooperating in some capacity.  Remember, how you say something is often as important as what you say.  As others have frequently pointed out, being combative, unresponsive or just plain uncooperative is the fastest way to get your butt relegated to suspect/ne'er-do-well/scumbag PITA status, IMO.

Having a few friends & acquaintances that are cops has given me some insight into what is often tolerated & what is not.  Not to mention I've been the one that's been a PITA from time to time as well. ::)

I've learned it's often best to answer specific questions as politely & concisely as possible, while not giving more than was asked for or continually prattling on.

Offline Stein

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 12:52:58 PM »
It all depends on the situation.  If I have shot someone, mum is the word.  Anything I say can be twisted or even written down wrong by the officer.  He could easily let his emotions or convictions lead him to write something that wasn't exactly what I said.

There is no way that not saying something on the scene could land you in a worse condition other than they could detain you where they might have let you go initially.  I would take my chances with short term detainment as opposed to 25 years for messing it up.

A well-trained investigator or even beat cop can really work a guy over, especially when under stress.  Why risk it?  Bring over the attorney and let someone watch my back while the interview is taped or at least another witness is present.

If there is a chance, even remote, that I will end up in the big house, I won't hesitate to not say anything.

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 01:16:24 PM »
I've learned it's often best to answer specific questions as politely & concisely as possible, while not giving more than was asked for or continually prattling on.

I think that is good advice. I never thought of not being co-operative, but I don't want to wind up being so co-operative that the situation is construed as to me being guilty when I am not.

I think buying mace might be a good idea too.

Goatdog62

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 05:45:00 PM »
DEV and Stein said it really well.

If you even think you might be a suspect in something, then answer nothing more than administrative questions. Even if you know you are innocent.

Absolutely clamming up and saying nothing at all, suspect or not, will probably as a minimum make it a very long night.

YMMV

Offline RonH2K

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2009, 06:55:46 PM »
One of the best books for any Florida gun-owner, or almost any gun-owner anywhere, is FLORIDA FIREARMS Law, Use & Ownership, Sixth Edition - 2006, by Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq..  This is one of the best books in my library and I've read it cover-to-cover at least 3 times.

One of the best excerpts is the advice he gives you if you're involved in a shooting.  He advises you to say, "Officer, I was attacked by this man, and thought he was armed.  I was in fear for my life, and was forced to shoot him in self-defense."  After that, he says to inform the officers that you don't want to make any additional statements until you've talked to your lawyer.  If they're really pressing you, he recommends that you remind them that even police officers are normally given 24 hours before questioned about a shooting so they can calm down, get the facts straight in their mind, and have a chance to talk to their F.O.P. representative and attorney.

I think the advantages of all of that are very clear.  That is one, highly defensible statement.

In most other situations, traffic stops, etc. and where he's talking about whether or not you volunteer that you have a legal weapon in your possession, he recommends you keep your mouth shut unless asked.

So, outside of these specific cases... ...I'm thinking the "keep your mouth shut" advice is winning.

Hope this info helps...

Offline ColdHaven

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2009, 07:44:02 PM »
It does help. Thanks Ron. I might look into that book as well.

Offline LdMorgan

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 08:36:27 PM »
Cops are just like any other group of people. Some are cool and some are major scumbags. As a group they share exactly the same vices as the rest of the population.

Plus a few that come with the badge.

When a spouse gets shot at home, about 80% of the time it will have been the other spouse that did the shooting. There are a lot of high-probability suspects for a lot of felony crimes.

Some cops just get lazy, and build a case against the Probably Guilty. They've seen it all too many times to start believing in One-Armed Murderers and the like. (Hell, if the guy ain't guilty, let him prove it...)

Once you get a shoelace caught in the legal machinery, you can get ground up really fast, and really fine.

The guys that will grind yhou get paid to do the grinding, and they get a bonus for making their quotas. They care exactly not at all if you are innocent or guilty. You're just meat moving past them on a hook.

Most people sink the hook shank-deep into themselves by running their mouths.

I am of the opinion that a person should produce their identity papers on demand, and answer only a single question thereafter.

When the cop reads you your Miranda warning, and then says "Do you understand these rights as I have read them to you?"

That's when you should open your mouth and say "No, I do not."

One time.

(Surprise: Even if you think you do, you don't!)

After that, the cop's job is suddenly uphill all the way. Typically they'll spend a couple of hours on the scene (that'll vary with the crime, of course) just trying to get you to answer that one question affirmatively.

The temptation will be immese, but don't give in to it.

Their entire system is predicated on processing prisioners that have agreed that they know their rights.

That have formally given up their right to claim that they do not know their rights.

Do Not Agree!

If it's anything short of a homicide, they may just cut you loose. If they don't, their entire case is probably going to blow up in their faces anyhow when some guy down at the jail asks you just one technically incorrect question...

And even if they do run you down to the slammer, you won't be interrogated. That's for sure!

You might even get a good night's sleep...instead of an all-night grilling.














Goatdog62

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 10:18:34 PM »
Cops are just like any other group of people. Some are cool and some are major scumbags. As a group they share exactly the same vices as the rest of the population.

Plus a few that come with the badge.

When a spouse gets shot at home, about 80% of the time it will have been the other spouse that did the shooting. There are a lot of high-probability suspects for a lot of felony crimes.

Some cops just get lazy, and build a case against the Probably Guilty. They've seen it all too many times to start believing in One-Armed Murderers and the like. (Hell, if the guy ain't guilty, let him prove it...)

Once you get a shoelace caught in the legal machinery, you can get ground up really fast, and really fine.

The guys that will grind yhou get paid to do the grinding, and they get a bonus for making their quotas. They care exactly not at all if you are innocent or guilty. You're just meat moving past them on a hook.

Most people sink the hook shank-deep into themselves by running their mouths.

I am of the opinion that a person should produce their identity papers on demand, and answer only a single question thereafter.

When the cop reads you your Miranda warning, and then says "Do you understand these rights as I have read them to you?"

That's when you should open your mouth and say "No, I do not."

One time.

(Surprise: Even if you think you do, you don't!)

After that, the cop's job is suddenly uphill all the way. Typically they'll spend a couple of hours on the scene (that'll vary with the crime, of course) just trying to get you to answer that one question affirmatively.
The temptation will be immese, but don't give in to it.

Their entire system is predicated on processing prisioners that have agreed that they know their rights.

That have formally given up their right to claim that they do not know their rights.

Do Not Agree!

If it's anything short of a homicide, they may just cut you loose. If they don't, their entire case is probably going to blow up in their faces anyhow when some guy down at the jail asks you just one technically incorrect question...

And even if they do run you down to the slammer, you won't be interrogated. That's for sure!

You might even get a good night's sleep...instead of an all-night grilling.


There is just way too much opinion in there to even consider that response to be close to the truth or even responsible advice.

The guys that will grind yhou get paid to do the grinding, and they get a bonus for making their quotas. They care exactly not at all if you are innocent or guilty. You're just meat moving past them on a hook.

The line about bonuses is not only untrue, but could be considered an insult. There are no bonuses when it comes to solvability of crimes in any agency, that would taint any case ever brought before a court. The lawyers would have a field day with that one. Do you really believe that a cop doesn't care if someone is innocent or guilty, that everyone is just meat? Completely out of line. I challenge you to back that one up with facts.

The tests of Miranda and not understanding it has been solved through case precedence. Rarely has anything beyond a language barrier (solved by finding an interpreter) or a mental deficiency been upheld as reasonable for not understanding your rights.

You have no idea the checks and balances that a case go through before ever reaching trial. Supervisors review cases and can tell if the officer was being "lazy." DA's and Attorney Generals scrutinize cases before agreeing to prosecute a case. They will send a case back to the PD in a heartbeat for further investigation.

Who are you quoting here?
(Hell, if the guy ain't guilty, let him prove it...)

Typically they'll spend a couple of hours on the scene (that'll vary with the crime, of course) just trying to get you to answer that one question affirmatively.
Can you name one case that where this happened? I can't.

What vices are you referring to when you say
"Plus a few that come with the badge."

It doesn't matter, you need not answer any of this. Just consider presenting your arguments with a little more...fairness.

Offline Pathfinder

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 11:45:54 AM »
This topic has been discussed on a number of site, including downtange.tv. The general consensus - including from police trainers - is to say as little as possible, along the lines of - "I was attacked, this guy attacked me, I had to stop him, I was afraid he was going to kill me (assuming all of the above was true - do not lie!!!). If the cops press for more, tell them you are too emotionally wrought up at the moment, and you will meet the officer at the station in the morning - and be there, with your lawyer. Insist on it.

The key problem is, that in a post-event situation, you are on adrenalin, and you will not be able to shut up.

There is a second part to the video, another 45 minutes worth, where a police sergeant says exactly the same thing - shut up! The police will do everything in their power to get you to talk, and if you even inadvertently change the story, or say 2 different things about the situation, or even say something new that was omitted from the original story, you are in deep do-do. Do not put yourself in a situation where hormones are controlling the rest of your life. There are thousands of laws in your jurisdiction - According to Oliver Wendell Holmes over a hundred years ago - you cannot go thru a day without violating some of them. Do not give anyone free reign to find one to hang you on.

Goatdog62

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 02:56:03 PM »
Pathfinder has stated what I consider to be the absolute best advice yet. I think if you follow it, you will be fine (unless you really are guilty).

Offline SLOHomemaker

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Offline LdMorgan

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 06:18:53 PM »
There is just way too much opinion in there to even consider that response to be close to the truth or even responsible advice.

Hey, Goatdog! I didn't mean to upset you (pr anyone) with that post. I would have answered earlier, but I've been out of town for over a week.

I don't want to get mega-verbose, but let me say that what I posted is not just my opinion. Much of it comes straight out of last year's textbooks for the Master's Degree course in Law Enforcement at a local college down "heah" in FL.

The quotas and "bonuses" exist. Not cash, so I should have said "brownie points" or some such. There is an elaborate system of informal rewards and sanctions laid on cops and DAs to grease their caseloads down the chute. (The tainted case, by the way, is the norm, not the exception.)

You appear to write as a very idealistic person, and I respect that. However, there is very little idealism in law enforcement. New cops and young DAs usually start out idealistic. After about two years, they have either given idealism up and "got with the program", or they've changed careers--voluntarily or otherwise.

That's just the way it is.

My point about Miranda was not whether the warnings were understood, but whether the recipient AGREED they were understood.That is a very powerful stipulation. I do know of one instance where the strategy was tried by a homeless cyber-friend of mine that had started sleeping at night in a utility room at some college in Penn. When he got busted, he refused to stipulate that he understood his righs "as they were read to him". (Note that lovely legal fine print!)

The two cops kept him in a squad car for over two hours, and used every trick in the book to get him to stipulate. The instant he caved, he was off to the pokey. If he could have held out past the end of shift, they'd have probably cut him loose as a total waste of time, and just told him to get out of Dodge.

The checks and balances do exist--on paper. In fact, a persons "access to law" varies tremendously according to their social station. In the US the young black female has almost no real protection at law. That was a real interesting section, by the way. In the eyes of the law enforcers, you are indeed guilty until proven innocent.

"Hell, if the guy ain't guilty, let him prove it." That was a quote from a Chicago cop. It was right in the part where he said there were only three kinds of people in world: cops, citizens, and scumbags. Citizens were stupid, and hated by police because they were always victims, and always wanted attention. Cops were ok, because they looked after their own. Scumbags were the trash cops had to take out every day, and they really wished they could just take them out permanently.

That guy had 20+ years in. Maybe he had just become extra-cynical.

Surprise: Cops--as a group--commit almost the exact same number and pattern of crimes as civilians--as a group. They have some extra access to crime that civilians don't have, like being on the take, or administering "street justice". Essentially any crime a cop commits "under color of law" is a crime that comes with the badge.

I'm not an attorney, but over the years I've studied a lot of law. Some of the stuff I learned thirty years ago is out of date. The stuff I studied last year probably isn't.

The law works--or we'd all be dead by now--but it doesn't work ANYTHING like the way most people think. Everyone should study up on the law. It's a hell of a hobby.

Offline bobkrack

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2011, 12:32:53 AM »
Yes I understand my rights and other than identifying myself, I decline to answer other questions without legal advice.

Bob

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2011, 06:32:46 PM »
I don't know how helpful this is (and I'm pretty new to the forums), but when I was a teenager, my dad told me that you should be polite and respectful to police officers when they ask you questions, but the second you feel like you are being accused, shut up and ask for a lawyer.  If they ask to search your home or car, say you decline until they have a warrant. 

He also said-- "Don't get caught.  Don't get pregnant."   ;D

Offline Entity

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2011, 07:44:28 PM »
My understanding, where I live, the absolute limit of what you have to tell a police officer is " My name is <insert full and correct name> and I live at <insert full and correct address>."

Offline flagtag

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2011, 08:00:51 PM »
Consider what "The Fifth" suggests - self incrimination.  If someone "takes the 5th, most people would believe that the person MIGHT be guilty.

BUT, you can also "take the FIRST" - freedom of speech - or REFUSAL to speak.  (With no suggestion of guilt attached.)

Too many people have seen the movie or TV programs where a person "takes the 5th (especially on the witness stand) in order to refuse to incriminate himself - so that is how most people view the 5th.
We CAN refuse to speak without that stigma.

Offline NWBowhunter

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2011, 08:24:38 PM »
I agree you should stick to the minimum. Name, address, and I was in fear of my life.  But as has been stated above the adrenalin will make it nearly impossible.  So it something you need to pratice, run the scenario in your head numerous times. Just as practice shooting or work through encounters.

Offline Roundabouts

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Re: Split Topic: How & When To Exercise Your Right To Silence
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2011, 03:01:13 PM »
I can say from first hand experience without going into a lot of detail not only will you have adrenalin flowing but sometimes so do the cops.  In a case of mistaken identity we lived on court CT the person they were looking for was on a circle CR it was scary and frigin ugly!! I still respect the job they do. How ever they are human and errors along with prejudices can and do occur.  There are good ones and ones you wonder what the department was thinking.  I have personally know both kinds.  I can say that I would just say I refuse to say any thing without my lawyer as that is the right I have as I understand it.

 I use to think differently this is America and you are innocent until proven guilty not always so.  My kids use to think cops were there to protect after that incident it took me along time to explain how such a mistake could be made and that the police are still there to help.  25 yrs later kids are still wary of the police. So sad.  It all could have been avoided if someone would have just listened openly with out the bs comments "yeah yeah we have heard that before"  Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in things can go very very wrong very very fast you'd think you were a prisoner of war.  Yes we had a case for a law suit but sometimes it's just better to put things behind you and move on.  Mistakes happen.  We got our freedom back and that was the main thing.  Of course an apology would have been nice with some flowers and dinner maybe.  But that would have been an admission of guilt. Oh well move on. 

 I also thought I had heard that if you want a lawyer that you have to say something to the effect of i will not say any thing and I am requesting my lawyer and that has to be your response to every question.  some kind of new thing that went into effect 1-2 yrs ago?  Don't know maybe I'm just remembering something from a movie when I fell asleep on the couch.