Author Topic: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?  (Read 14928 times)

Offline Garandman

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2012, 04:20:52 PM »
One feature I like about my Mossberg 500 is it (along with all other pump shotguns) makes a very distinctive noise when racking a shell into the chamber.  I dare say NOTHING else sounds like a pump shotgun racking.  If you are a bad guy and you hear that noise, you know....
...Exactly where to aim.

There is now an App available for Android and iPhones with the sound of a shotgun racking.  Will "home Defense Seapkers" be next?


Offline CR Williams

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2012, 12:24:54 PM »
If you're going to make a shotgun your primary home-defense long-gun, you need to pattern your chosen buckshot load at the longest range you will fire it at, and preferably pattern the load at shorter ranges as well. So to do it best, you might run a load or two at the distance covered from your doorway to the edge of your front yard, over the length of your longest hallway, and across one or two rooms or across the longest open space in the house where you might take a shot. This is the most important step I think you can take in preparing for the use of a shotgun in defense like this.

Get a red dot on it, too. That will help more than you think when you find out from the patterning session that you still need to aim a shotgun even shooting across the room with it.
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Offline Garandman

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #92 on: November 21, 2012, 03:41:49 PM »
/Get a red dot on it, too. That will help more than you think when you find out from the patterning session that you still need to aim a shotgun even shooting across the room with it.
I suggest start by shooting slugs. Doesn't take long to realize you can, should - and must - aim your fire.

At 10-12 feet, the largest pattern any standard 00 buckshot round will produce is 2-4".

Offline trekker111

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #93 on: December 18, 2012, 02:17:29 AM »
Any suggestions on a HD round for the AR (don't own a shotgun yet).  I am extremely concerned with over penetration.  Two little ones in the house, and the neighbors house is only 8ft away, with big window in the likely background of intruder if they were in our hall    Our house does have plaster and lath constructions though.   The local gun shop recommended a high velocity, high fragmentation, Winchester varmint round.  Any thoughts?

It's never been a secret on this or any other forum, that i like hornady ammo. For HD I would recommend Hornady TAP 223 75gr bthp, for sighting in your gun, and practice hornady loads the same bullet in their steel match line and it normally retails for half the price, but has a larger muzzle flash. Hornady tap is loaded with with a low flash powder blend, which helps preserve vision when fired in low light.

That being said, HD shouldn't be based on merely a gun/ammo selection, but as part of a comprehensive plan and strategy. Things like where bedrooms are located, how beds and furniture are positioned in rooms, how the light switches are wired and positioned, the locations of mirrors, etc, also need to be considered.
 
 In my house light switches are position and wired so that I can turn on the lights as I move through the house in both directions, so if I get up to go check out a weird noise during the night I can turn on the lights to a room before I enter it. When my house was built the master bedroom was put at the opposite end of the house from the 3 other bedrooms. We do not use this room as a bedroom, instead it is my den and the first bedroom you come to is our bedroom, that way when i exit the bedroom my wife and kids are behind me, and the only things "down range" are bad guys and stuff. When everything that is important is behind you over penetration is a moot point, and there are a couple of opportunities for a shot to be 20+ yards in my house.

Furniture is positioned to provide cover for me and family members, and funnel intruders.

I say why limit yourself to just an rifle, or just a shotgun. My AR and my 12ga,along  with a handgun, flashlight, cellphone, and bullet resistant vest are always kept in the bedroom when I'm asleep. If a intruder were to be holding my wife hostage with a gun to her head i wouldn't be able to risk that shot with a 12 guage and 00 buck, or a slug and a bead sight.

As for the cha-chunk sound of a pump shotgun, my experience shows that nothing clears a bar parking lot full of fighting drunks better than the forceful racking of a Remington 870 police magnum.



Offline dunflr

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2013, 11:15:50 AM »
I sold my last shotgun over 35 years ago, when I found out how short ranged it was with buckshot. about the same time, i found out about the Ciener .22lr conversiion units for the AR.  I have an aR for shtf, but HD is like anywhere else defense, I use the pistol, because that's what I will have on me. If I have time to run and get a longam, I likewise had time to carefully brain shoot all of the attackers with my pistol.  I don't want to point a gun at everything at which I look with a flashlight, and if I thought that there was a problem inside of my home,, I'd arrange for cover, and turn on the lights.   If you don't have armor and electrnoic earmuffs lying beside your longarm, you are critically deficient. ditto if an AA flashlight does not "ride" on in an ankle pouch anywhere that you carry your pistol.  U want one with a side button that can be activated and held with the weak hand thumb, without altering your 2 handed stance at all.

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2013, 04:25:21 PM »
This is in no way directed at dunflr, just a heads up. Anybody responding from here on out should probably have the heads up that Yeager is only listed as a guest on this forum so the don't say anything bad about somebody who can't defend themselves rule applies.

As for the post above,

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I found out how short ranged it was with buckshot.

Federal flight control keeps a pattern inside 8" out to ~15 yards for most shotguns (pattern your own to know for sure). HD use of any firearm outside 15 yards is physically impossible in a lot of houses. Your house may be the exception. Mine for one isn't.

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I have an aR for shtf, but HD is like anywhere else defense, I use the pistol, because that's what I will have on me.

I'm all for home carry, but I'm also all for having a solution that stops threats cold rather than just hurts them a lot and might make them bleed out later. It would be great to have long gun stopping ability in a controllable handgun, but it doesn't exist outside of sci-fi shows.

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If I have time to run and get a longam, I likewise had time to carefully brain shoot all of the attackers with my pistol.

Time is a complete misnomer. It is all about opportunity. It doesn't matter if it takes an intruder 10 seconds to get to you or 10 hours. What matters is what you have to aid you in that split moment when they are on target and you are it. You don't get bonus time based on whether or not you had time to get a long gun or not. You do however increase your odds of survival as an inverse function of how long the assailant is physically capable of continuing to be a threat once you are in a position to stop them. Not even buckshot is an auto off switch, but nothing usable indoors compares in time from impact to inability to cause harm.

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I don't want to point a gun at everything at which I look with a flashlight, and if I thought that there was a problem inside of my home,, I'd arrange for cover, and turn on the lights.

An oft used but irrelevant argument against long gun lights. If you ever use one, you'll see they light up the entire room no matter where they are pointed. You also don't get to assume that you'll have all the time in the world to turn on lights and get to cover.

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If you don't have armor and electrnoic earmuffs lying beside your longarm, you are critically deficient.

Change long arm to any arm. One of the bonuses to .45 is that they are at least subsonic, but any of the handgun calibers can cause permanent hearing damage indoors, and supersonic ammo all the more. Ear muffs (the noise amplifying cut off type like ear pros), and safety glasses should be set up next to where ever an HD firearm of any type is kept. Takes seconds to put on (and can be skipped if you don't have those seconds), and can save your hearing and vision even if everything goes as ideal as it could. Armor is another huge bonus, but I get that cost can be prohibitive compared to a pump and some shells. More and more I'm adopting the opinion that anybody that spends significant amounts of time on a range should probably have armor suitable for whatever gets used at their range and should have it handy just like the eyes and ears.

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ditto if an AA flashlight does not "ride" on in an ankle pouch anywhere that you carry your pistol.  U want one with a side button that can be activated and held with the weak hand thumb, without altering your 2 handed stance at all.

An edc light should be within reach day or night IMO, and learning the half dozen or so different light weapon techniques for handgun and long gun will pay dividends for life.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. Here's some free karma. +1

Offline dunflr

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2013, 05:06:12 PM »
If I only have one type of light, I see no reason to waste my time learning the others.  Since the shotgun is so limited in use (and likelihood of being there when needed) I see no reason to own one, much less spend the time and money to train with it.   At typical home defense ranges, the pattern is 3-4" wide, so it's really no help at hitting anything, anyway.

Look, I know you make your money teaching people, but I learned all this stuff while you were still in kindergarten. I"m 60, and I knew Jeff Cooper pretty well already in 1973. I"m worked with Farnum, Ayoob, Wilson, Dalton, Hack and many others. I am a firm believer in KISS, so i'm not about to split up my training with a shotgun that feels and operates a lot differently than my rifle.

 Nosler Partition softpoint  223's  are FINE manstoppers, guy.  Shoot some critters with them and you'll see that they are every bit as likely to stop a man as a charge of buckshot is.  Buckshot doesn't get the "Mach II effect" of having the temporary gas cavity being able to destroy fragile organs. Note that I did NOT say muscle.  The only muscle inside of the chest cavity is the heart. The lungs are nothing more than airsacks, the spleen and liver are so fragile that they can be damaged by a bare knuckled punch.  The kidneys are so shock-prone that I once put a guy on one knee with a little flat foot round house that I barely felt touch him. :-)

 I've been hurt far worse (and hurt people far worse) while sparring than I've seen guys hurt after a fight that had gone on for many seconds!  I've had  2 ribs broken in two places by a single up toes roundhouse kick, by a novice, no less.  i've have my lips spread all over my face by an elbow (again from a novice).

the fact is that the very great majority of the time, IF you get the gun NOTICED by the bg IN TIME and if you are smart enough to leave him an escape route, he will take it.  Many of those who don't flee at just the sight of the gun will have their minds changed by MISSES, too. :-) This fact is born out by cases printed by the NRA EVERY MONTH in their "armed citizen" columns.  If this were not true, there'd be nobody buying mini-revolvers, derringers,  .25's, .32's, etc.  Cause those things are nothing BUT bluff.

I shot IPSC for  4 years, and out of the hundreds of guys I saw compete (and I do mean at US nat'ls and world shoots, not 10% impressed me as being able to adequately dominate an attack scene.  I've known quite a few spec ops types, too.  Most of them impressed me even less, actually.  As a guy who trains them once told me". Shooters they are, gunmen they are NOT".  :-)

inbox485

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2013, 06:41:03 PM »
Whatever works, rock on with it. 5.56 vs 12 ga is a perfectly valid debate, but there is a reason the military still pulls out 12 ga for room clearing, and nothing in a handgun caliber comes anywhere close. Buckshot isn't to assist in aim, it is to assist in wounding. That 3-4" spreads to ~8" inside the chest cavity and modern bullet trauma treatment is putting a lot of 40+ year old myths to bed about the peripheral shock damage. You only get what appears to be shock trauma when you get fragmentation. That tends to happen with 5.56 at close range, but it is built in with buckshot (again, not even pretending to happen out of a handgun).

Offline dunflr

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2013, 06:57:02 PM »
you're wrong on several counts.  Shoot some critters with Partition  223 softpints and buckshot, and you wont see the type of "blood shot" meat around the actual permanent cavity with the pellets that you WILL see around the wound channel left by the deep penetrating Nosler sp.

Handguns CAN be made to deliver  M4 softpoint type of shock, too, if you go at it right. What you need is really lw bullets, going really fast. A fiully  supported barrel, in an alloy commander .45, using shorted  460 Rowland or .45 W mag cases, can get 70 gr solid aluminum hps (split from the nose almost to the base) to  2200 fps.  Since the .45 has 4x the frontal area of the 223, you don't need quite as much impact speed to see the temporary gas cavity being able to damage fragile chest organs that are not impacted by the bullets or frags theerof.  Animal tests prove this

A pair of .45 segments, tumbling after splitting apart, destroy a helluva lot of tissue with the 700 ft lbs of power that such loads have, and transmit a helluva lot of shock.  But they also pierce kevlar vests, so they will never be offered commercially.  70 grs at  2200 fps has no more recoil than 140 grs at 1100 fps, or  220 grs at  700 fps. or 115 grs at 1300 fps, or  230 grs at 650 fps. in other words, such loads are fully controlable, by one hand, in a lw, compact belt pistol.


 Worry a lot less about needing stopping power and a lot more about needing the gun put into line with the bg, soon enough for him to NOTICE it,  stop his attack and flee. There are guys who are  3-4x as fast into action as is the average cop. That's what to spend your time on, and almost all of it can be dryfire or airsoft. Trainers don't want you to know all this, by the way.

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2013, 07:19:11 PM »
you're wrong on several counts.  Shoot some critters with Partition  223 softpints and buckshot, and you wont see the type of "blood shot" meat around the actual permanent cavity with the pellets that you WILL see around the wound channel left by the deep penetrating Nosler sp.

People aren't the size of critters. That isn't apples to apples. I'll trust autopsy reports over critter reports.

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Handguns CAN be made to deliver  M4 softpoint type of shock, too, if you go at it right. What you need is really lw bullets, going really fast. A fiully  supported barrel, in an alloy commander .45, using shorted  460 Rowland or .45 W mag cases, can get 70 gr solid aluminum hps (split from the nose almost to the base) to  2200 fps.  Since the .45 has 4x the frontal area of the 223, you don't need quite as much impact speed to see the temporary gas cavity being able to damage fragile chest organs that are not impacted by the bullets or frags theerof.  Animal tests prove this

Again ^^^. You could certainly go that route. Problem is that on HUMANS, those rounds go all of 2-3" and are miserable failures at meeting basic FBI standards.

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A pair of .45 segments, tumbling after splitting apart, destroy a helluva lot of tissue with the 700 ft lbs of power that such loads have, and transmit a helluva lot of shock.  But they also pierce kevlar vests, so they will never be offered commercially.  70 grs at  2200 fps has no more recoil than 140 grs at 1100 fps, or  220 grs at  700 fps. or 115 grs at 1300 fps, or  230 grs at 650 fps. in other words, such loads are fully controlable, by one hand, in a lw, compact belt pistol.

Maybe a flack jacket, but I've never heard of anything aluminum from a handgun penetrating a vest, and certainly not anything designed to fragment. I don't do this often but I'm calling source on that one.

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Worry a lot less about needing stopping power and a lot more about needing the gun put into line with the bg, soon enough for him to NOTICE it,  stop his attack and flee. There are guys who are  3-4x as fast into action as is the average cop. That's what to spend your time on, and almost all of it can be dryfire or airsoft. Trainers don't want you to know all this, by the way.

I'm all for home carry as I mentioned before, but I'm not going to not go get a long gun and bet my life on the BG pissing themselves at the sight of something gunish looking just because. If I have to take a shot, I want it to be the most capable of STOPPING (not scarring or hurting) the guy as possible that I can get my hands on in whatever time I have. And yes somewhere in the 99 - 99.999% of my training is with dryfire or airsoft, and you might be surprised where I learned that from. Things like that change in 60 years.

Offline TexDaddy

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Re: James Yeager: why do you choose a SG for HD?
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2013, 07:41:19 PM »
This is a very old thread, and as has been pointed out, James Yeager is no longer here.

The thread is now locked.

Here, when we have a disagreement, we do it in a civil manner.

Statements like, "You're wrong" are better stated other ways that are not so confrontational.
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Caught up in the fable, I watched the tower grow.
Five year plans and new deals, wrapped in golden chains.
And I wonder, still I wonder who'll stop the rain."

...A quote from the book 'Mataroda' comes to mind:
'To do more than your best is impossible, to do less is unthinkable'
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