Author Topic: Rabbit Starvation  (Read 35930 times)

kaiservontexas

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Rabbit Starvation
« on: November 13, 2008, 05:34:15 PM »
I came across this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

I was wondering if anybody else knew more about it? I always hear the hunt small game line, but I never knew a person could die by just eating small game.

Offline Heavy G

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 06:33:29 PM »
Jack talked about this.  He was making the point in a podcast about beans and rice that you don't want to forget the fats.  Nowadays, everyone thinks "fat" is a horrible thing to eat.  But your body needs it, especially to digest other foods. 

 

Offline flagtag

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 06:41:10 PM »
I heard about this years ago.  I read that rabbits didn't provide enough (?) of something, but I didn't know what. So, a steady diet of nothing but rabbit could "starve" one to death, huh?  Maybe it would be ok for a short term emergency situation (2 or 3 days?), but you would probably want to look for something else - like fish?, fruit?, nuts? if possible.  I bet rabbit stew would make up for it though.  (Maybe?)

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Offline wcff3431

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 09:00:27 PM »
i heard of a long time ago also. rabbit stew make anything better.

kaiservontexas

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2008, 09:13:46 PM »
Jack talked about this.  He was making the point in a podcast about beans and rice that you don't want to forget the fats.  Nowadays, everyone thinks "fat" is a horrible thing to eat.  But your body needs it, especially to digest other foods. 

 

That is true I forgot about that one. Well anyway I thought it deserved more mention. I hear to many people say they will live off the critters. We do not need many of our fellow survival folks dieing due to lack of information.

Lucretius

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2008, 07:25:31 AM »
It's a long term problem, if you're eating ONLY rabbit meat...

But I think eating some fatty but not very tasty parts of the rabbit is a remedy (esp. brains).

Offline cdnshooter

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2008, 09:07:32 AM »
Several Easters ago I sat through a survival lecture given by our very experienced and very serious Commando Sergeant Major. ( Company First Sargent)

After he mentioned the fact that consuming rabbit meat only would cause fat deficiencies, a hand shot up at the back of the room.

Corporal Bulger was a known 'character' within our unit. We were never quite sure if he was really that stupid or really that brilliant.

His question was, "Well, Sir, you know how you was talkin' about rabbits, right?".

Blinking a few times, the CSM patiently answered "Yes..."

"And how there's not enough fat on them?"

"Yes...." the CSM cautiously replied, unsure about where the good Corporal was taking this.

"Well, what about their eggs?"

 :o

The lectured ended early.

jeremya

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2008, 09:49:53 AM »
I heard about this on "Survivorman" a few years ago.
I would of never thought someone could starve eating rabbits, but it makes sense.

-- Jeremy

kaiservontexas

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2008, 06:01:52 PM »
I heard about this on "Survivorman" a few years ago.
I would of never thought someone could starve eating rabbits, but it makes sense.

-- Jeremy

I find it strange myself. My mind is still wrapping itself around the fact that a person can starve despite eating.

Offline archer

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 11:00:07 AM »
It is a strange concept. Starving with a full belly... Something good to know.

Offline Taylor3006

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 10:38:15 AM »
If you are only eating wild rabbits, just do like the old timers did, fry the rabbit. If they had oil they used it, if not they used the brains and bone marrow to fry the meat in. This helps with the fat problem and if you add biscuits to the meal you are fine. If you are just intent on making stew/soup, take your field dressed bunny (with head) and boil the whole thing. Ya  might wanna trim off his ears. Ya gotta remember to that the people who ended up with this condition were also working their asses off to stay alive. If you are in a situation where you are mainly sedentary (ie in a shelter), you will probably do just fine. Rabbit starvation is probably not something most people would have to worry about, eating an exclusive diet of nothing but wild rabbit seems unlikely. Domestic bunnies are fairly lean but have enough fat to keep ya going. Almost any exclusive diet is going to leave you deficient in something, vary your menu, eat fresh when you can, and keeping supplements will keep you going.

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2008, 08:38:55 AM »
Its called protien starvation.  You are getting plenty of meat but no lipids.  Your body needs fat, if you don't get it in your diet your body will start using up its own reserves (it'll be a while before I starve from that!) in the same way you loose weight on a diet.  Focusing your diet on other lean meats like deer can also have this effect unless you supplement.  Luckily you can find fat in lots of other foods including vegetables.  I can't imagine having to eat only rabbit for weeks - you will most likely run out of rabbits to kill before you die from starvation due to lack of fat.

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 10:50:40 AM »
If there are rabbits, there should also be a source of water somewhere - however limited - but hopefully enough for fish.   Maybe.  ;D

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 08:19:21 AM »
Its called protien starvation.  You are getting plenty of meat but no lipids.  Your body needs fat, if you don't get it in your diet your body will start using up its own reserves (it'll be a while before I starve from that!) in the same way you loose weight on a diet. 

Fat gets a bad rap nowadays.  Our grandparents were on to something when they put gravy on everything.  They exercised a lot so it was no big deal.

The need for fat is why I have lots of powdered gravy in my bug out pad.  Goes great with rice, too.  And it's cheap--about $2.50 for a one pound bag that stores well.

Offline flagtag

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 09:46:57 AM »
What kind of gravy is that?  Is it "milk" gravy, or the dark brown kind that one gets in restaurants?  And where did you get it?  Link or Price? Please.

Offline Heavy G

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 10:02:51 AM »
I don't remember the brand name and the packets are off site so I can't look.  It's a foil package with a label on the front.  It's not a brand name I've seen before.  One pound packages that make, I seem to remember, a gallon of gravy.

I got them at a Cash n' Carry discount grocery store.  They go by different names in different places but they are the bulk discount grocery stores.

They have brown, white, country with fake sausage bits (barf), and turkey gravies.  These are $2.50 or so.

They also come in alfredo sauce (great with the bulk pasta) and some other cream-based (fake cream) pasta sauces.  These are $4 or $5.


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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 10:11:21 AM »
Thanks for the information.  I don't go to the bulk stores (too far away), so, I think I'll just stick with my Campbell's Cream of Mushroom Soup that I make gravy out of. (With a little meat grease/water.)  I WILL, however, look for something like that at Wal-Mart.

Thanks again.

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 08:40:05 PM »
Here is the most basic way to understand this.

1.  There are only three and no more then three sources of calories they are fat, carbohydrates and proteins.  Any calorie is one of these three.

2.  If you get zero carbs in time you can/might have some complications specifically if you have prexisting kidney issues.  However getting zero carbs unless you live on nothing but meat is almost impossible.  The key being though all but the sick and very weak can live with no carbs at all. 

3.  If you get zero protein sooner or later you WILL DIE, not may be, not possibly but definitely but you can go a long time. 

4.  Zero fat will kill you pretty quickly, in time your nails will grow weak and fall out, your hair will start to fall out and then you die as in DEAD as a door nail!  Fat of the three caloric sources is the only one you need to sustain life in the relative short term (60-90 days).

This is all quite counter intuitive in regard to current dogma about diet and fat in general but it is true and quite easy to verify.  One of the most enlightening books anyone can read would be, "The Protein Power Plan" by the Doctors Eades.  Fat and protein are good, carbs have a place but too many cause diabeties, obiciety, high blood pressure and most "modern lifestyle illnesses".  Rice, beans and pasta may be good "survival rations" but day to day take them in moderation as side dishes and eat bacon, steak and pork chops with abandon and you will find that the government is lying about diet just like they are about most other things.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 08:42:21 PM by ModernSurvival »

Offline Stein

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 08:58:39 PM »
Back in the day I read a book about a guy studying wolves in their habitat.  He went as far as sleeping like them (few minutes here and there) and eating the same food.  They were eating field mice for a time and he ended up craving fats after only a few days.  He changed the recipe from the meat to the whole mouse - brains and all - and ended up ok after that.

There are more parts to the rabbit than meat.

On another note, there were huge rabbit infestations during the dust bowl years.  They got into everything and townspeople held rabbit bashing parties where they literally herded them into a small area and went after them with bats.

Offline Heavy G

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2008, 08:35:19 AM »
What kind of gravy is that?  Is it "milk" gravy, or the dark brown kind that one gets in restaurants?  And where did you get it?  Link or Price? Please.

Flagtag:

It's "Trio" brand gravy made by Nestle.  Here's a link to it:

http://www.foodservicedirect.com/index.cfm/S/28/CLID/273/N/3447/Nestle_Trio_Brown_Gravy_Mix.htm

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2008, 04:39:39 PM »
That's great!  Thanks for the link. 
(gravy comes in handy if one has a bad cut of meat. Or has to eat meat that one doesn't like. ;D)

Offline aslink

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2008, 06:29:50 PM »
The body requires fat in order to process protein. If your diet is only protein the body uses it's stores to process it. Great at first if you want that lean look but bad long term if you want the alive look. The other side of the coin is if you have a heavy diet of protein and fats the body converts that protein into glucose and uses it as fuel. The rest gets processed and gets stored as fat, if I remember correctly. This is from my Nutrition class in 83', it's all kind of hazy now.

Also the reason why everyone says rice and beans are so good is because they complete each other so well meaning they create the 8 essential amino acids. The body can make the other 16 amino acids if the essential 8 are available. Then there is the added benefit of the carbs which are more easily converted to fuel for the body. Now keep in mind if you get a combination of foods that make 8 of the essentials and one of the 8 is lower than the others you only get the equal amount of the lowest amino. So your always looking for foods that complement each other well so you get enough of the 8 essential amino acids. That's what makes eating vegetarian so hard. Why do so much research when all you need to do is add a little meat you're easily getting what you need.



I made a quick little diagram showing if you get a decent amount of say 7 essential amino acids you only get the benefit of your lowest amount straight across. This is what makes it hard for vegetarians to me at least to eat properly. You really gotta know your foods. As much as I loved Nutrition I didn't care to go that deep into planning meals that way. But to each their own that's what makes this big ball so much fun to exist on.

Here's the article I used to make sure I remembered things right. So I thought I would share it as well.

Essential Amino Acids

Did you know: It is easy to get all the protein we need without eating meats (any animal tissue).

Did you know: Our body gets all but 1/6 of the protein it needs from recycling old body tissue. This 1/6 must come from essential amino acids we eat.

Every cell in the body is comprised of proteins. Amino acids are the chemical substances that make up protein. Our bodies use 22 amino acids to make the 50,000 different proteins we must have to be healthy. Of the 22 amino acids there are 8 that are essential for human nutrition. An essential amino acid is one that cannot be synthesised from other available resources, and therefore must be supplied as part of the diet.

It is not important to mix plant material at one meal to obtain the 8 amino acids - Our bodies store amino acids in our blood for several hours. So if we miss getting some amino acids in one meal, we can pick them up at some other time during the day. Non-essential amino acids don't need to be supplied in the diet as they can be synthesised from other dietary substances.

Nearly every food, with the exception of fruits, sugars and fats and oils, has enough protein to supply our necessary amino acids if we eat enough of it to get our day's worth of calories. We do not need to eat meat.

The 8 essential amino acids are:

    * tryptophan - tryptophan is a precursor for serotonin and melatonin. It is plentiful in chocolate, oats, bananas, dried dates, milk, cottage cheese, meat, fish, turkey and peanuts.
    * lysine - Lysine deficiency can result in a deficiency in niacin (Vitamin B) and this can cause the disease pellagra. It is also beneficial in treating and preventing herpes. Lysine sources include green beans, lentils, soybean, spinach and amaranth.
    * methionine - Methionine supplies sulphur and other compounds required by the body for normal metabolism and growth. It belongs to a group of compounds called lipotropics that help the liver process fats. It is found in fish, whole grains, and dairy.
    * Valine: Valine is needed for muscle metabolism, tissue repair, and for the maintenance of proper nitrogen balance in the body. Valine is found in high concentration in the muscle tissue. It is also one of the three branched chain amino acids, which means that it can be used as an energy source by muscle tissue. It may be helpful in treating livere and gallbladder disorders, and it is good for correcting the type of severe amino acid deficiencies that can be caused by drug addiction. Dietary sources of valine include dairy products, grain, meat, mushrooms, peanuts, and soy proteins.
    * Leucine: Leucine is a branched chain essential amino acid that stimulates muscle protein synthesis and may be the major fuel involved in anabolic (tissue building) reactions During times of starvation, stress, infection, or recovery from trauma, the body mobilizes leucine as a source for gluconeogenesis (the synthesis of blood sugar in the liver) to aid in the healing process. It has recently been suggested that leucine may have beneficial therapeutic effects on the prevention of protein wasting, as it occurs during starvation, semi-starvation, trauma, or recovery after surgery. Insulin deficiency is known to result in poor utilization of leucine; therefore, individuals who suffer from glucose intolerance may require higher levels of leucine intake. Leucine is found in cottage cheese, sesame seeds, peanuts, dry lentils, chicken, and fish.
    * Isoleucine: Isoleucine is a branched chain amino acid that is important for blood sugar regulation, muscle development and repair, haemoglobin development, and energy regulation. Deficiencies of isoleucine result in possible dizziness, headaches, fatigue, depression, confusion and irritability. Isoleucine is found in eggs, fish, lentils, poultry, beef, seeds, soy, wheat, almonds and dairy.
    * Threonine: Threonine is important for antibody production. It can be converted into glycine and serine. Deficiencies are rare but can result in skin disorders and weakness. Dietary sources of threonine include dairy, beef, poultry, eggs, beans, nuts, and seeds.
    * Phenylalanine: Phenylalanine serves in the body as a precursor to the catecholamine family of hormones. These hormones include adrenaline and noradrenaline, which are activating substances in the central and peripheral nervous systems. Deficiencies are rare but can include slowed growth, lethargy, liver damage, weakness, oedema, and skin lesions. Food sources or phenylalanine are dairy, almonds, avocados, lima beans, peanuts, and seeds.

Food Sources

Food sources of each of the essential amino acids are mentioned in the previous section describing each essential amino acid. In general terms proteins are found primarily in meats, eggs, milk, rice and beans, although there are also amino acids in vegetable as well. Our bodies have to break down plant or animal protein into the component amino acids and then rebuild protein - human protein. The plant or animal protein cannot be absorbed directly because these proteins have polypeptides with hundreds, or thousands of amino acids joined in peptide bonds that have to be broken with enzymes into the single amino acids that the body can absorb, and then reform into the proteins the body requires. It is more difficult for our bodies to break down animal protein than it is for it to break down plant protein.

Heat in cooking and the conditions of processing destroy many amino acids in our food.

Vegetarians and vegans often have low intakes of the amino acid lysine that is prevalent in eggs and poultry products.

Too much protein?

Meats are the most protein dense food, followed by legumes and then grains, oats and rye. Meat eaters usually consume far more protein than they require which can lead to health problems. When we consume more protein than our body needs, we cause excess nitrogen to be excreted as urea in urine. This excess nitrogen has been linked with reduced kidney function in later years. Studies have found that when people have impaired kidney function, reducing protein intake slows the rate of decline of kidney function. High protein intakes may lead to dehydration due to excessive urine output (related to ketone production), and may cause extra metabolic stress to be placed on the liver.

Too much protein in the diet also can increase excretion of calcium, and there is some evidence of high protein diets linked to osteoporosis, particularly when the major protein source is animal. The calcium, on its way through the urinary system, can produce kidney stones.

If our diets are high in protein they are usually low in other food group representatives. Therefore there is an increased risk of inadequate vitamins and minerals (especially antioxidants), low fibre intake, high total and saturated fat intake, excess caloric intake, as well as excess protein intake. These imbalances carry with them long term negative consequences.

Amino Acid Supplements

Although most of us obtain sufficient amounts of the essential amino acids in our diets there are conditions that require our bodies to need more than they are getting. In times of physical and emotional stress, illness, injury and surgery the body requires more amino acids than can be gained from food alone, especially when the diet is poor. Many people are turning away from a meat based diet because of considerations for the environment, the animals, and their own health. In these situations it is important that people educate themselves on the best ways to obtain sufficient essential amino acids.

If supplementation is required, but it is important to establish if the body does really need more. If supplementation is required make sure it is pharmaceutical grade, or the highest quality, pure, crystalline amino acids which are best utilised by our body since they do not require digestion and are easily absorbed.

Offline Heavy G

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2008, 07:33:23 PM »




You gotta love this forum.  You can learn so much here.  People like aslink actually post color graphs about amino acids. 

I was thinking about it: short of a formal school setting, how could you learn as much about survival than by reading this forum? 

OK, now back to the topic of rabbit starvation.

Offline aslink

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2008, 08:47:34 PM »
Thanks. Just trying to do my part.

This is a great forum.

Ken

kaiservontexas

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2008, 11:51:05 AM »
Thanks Aslink, if only my undergrad courses were so much fun!

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2008, 12:13:43 PM »
Thanks. Just trying to do my part.

This is a great forum.

Ken

Aslink - +1 for you, man!  I'm a pre-veterinary science major, and a biology/nutritions nerd, and planned on going on a rant about rate limiting amino acids, but what is this?  It's been done!  ;D  You rock!

Kyser

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2008, 12:11:31 PM »
If amino acids affect other chemicals in the body and some of those chemicals regulate emotion, then can food be effectively used to control mood disorders?  Or could diet be the cause of many mood disorders?

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2008, 02:18:33 PM »
If amino acids affect other chemicals in the body and some of those chemicals regulate emotion, then can food be effectively used to control mood disorders?  Or could diet be the cause of many mood disorders?

That is a loaded question.  There are so many answers to it and so many tangents on which we could go off, it makes my head spin!  :)

However, I think it's time for a thread split.  Because diet regulating emotions has nothing at all to do with rabbit starvation.  Start another thread on the subject, and I'll jump in and play "what if" with you on this subject.  :)

SouthernLiving

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Re: Rabbit Starvation
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2008, 02:36:04 PM »
If amino acids affect other chemicals in the body and some of those chemicals regulate emotion, then can food be effectively used to control mood disorders?  Or could diet be the cause of many mood disorders?

Ever given chocolate to a girl?