Author Topic: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?  (Read 9324 times)

Offline surfivor

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good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« on: February 21, 2016, 05:51:15 PM »

 I am looking for good deals on seedlings of plants such as blueberries, kiwi, paw paw or possibly other that would grow in zones 4-6. I used to be able to order 25 paw paw seedlings from oikos for something that averaged out to around $2 a seedling, but they don't offer that deal anymore. I think direct gardening sells 6 blueberry plants for around $52 which is ok. I am also interested in quality seedlings of course, but at a good deal ..

 I think I would plant a few around my house and grow them until they  get big enough to transplant where I want them.

 My mothers backyard is a good spot as a nursery for kiwi or paw paw seedlings because it is only partial sun.

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2016, 11:10:26 AM »
In my area, Lowes hardware has carried hardy kiwi for the last 3 years. They were actually decent plants (surprising, as most of their garden plants are garbage). They were $10 each.
You only need a couple of these. Don't buy too many. They bear heavily when established (2 plants last year got me 365 +/- lbs), and they're not mature yet. They also propagate very readily from cutting, so there's no need to buy a lot. Just get 2 males and 2 females of differing varieties (4 varieties in total) to spread out the pollination window. Don't be too picky about cultivars, most of them have only started improvement programs in the last 10 years, there's not much of a difference in many of the named varieties yet.

Blueberry likewise can be found at garden centers very cheaply. Best to get them on end of year closeouts. They were selling them for $15 each (gallon size), marked down to $1 each in September. Not the best varieties, definitely spend the money to get the varieties you prefer. But for bulk purchasing, $1 ain't bad. At that price I can grow them for chicken feed. Early spring, you're going to pay insane prices for them retail. Even mail-order prices are high at that time. If you don't mind waiting a few years, plant from seed. You can buy a pound of blueberry seed for around $50. That's a few hundred thousand plants. You need a sizable nursery, and the attrition rate from sprout to mature plant is high (maybe 1% will make it), but that's how you get them cheap. You could even plant a bag of frozen blueberries if you wanted to. Just keep in mind, the nursery plants have a 5 year head start.

Pawpaws, I still haven't found a good source for. Every place I've ordered them has sent me shallow potted, rootbound twigs. They are a taproot plant, much better started from seed in deep soil. If it's a 1' tall seedling, it should be in a 3' deep pot, and nobody wants to ship that. Just get some seeds and either direct sow en masse, or plant them in 4' lengths of 8" drain pipe with coco coir, compost and sand. Just buy 100' of drain pipe ($50), cut into lengths of 3-4', and ratchet-strap them together vertically. Fill with your potting mix, and plant the seeds. Then run a drip line to each one, they need constant water. Pawpaw aren't good with being transplanted. Put them where you want them, and never move them. That might mean using a shade cloth of part of the year until they reach a decent size.


Offline 11steve11

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2016, 01:24:21 PM »
We got our Paw paws from www.burntridgenursery.com and they were strong/healthy plants in long pots (drain pipes). They did very well along our south fence in alkaline rocky soil. We actually went and met Michael (the owner) and walked around his place; I'd suggest calling to talk with him if you have any questions, he has our highest recommendations.

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 02:33:48 PM »
Burntridge is probably the only place I haven't ordered Pawpaws from, lol. But I can attest to the quality of their plants. I've placed a few orders before, and was impressed with the quality. Nothing was root bound (bare root, but no twists in the roots). Nothing overly pruned, or showed signs of improper pruning (dead stubs where a branch was trimmed too long, or knot-holes where it was trimmed too short).

Keep in mind, when you order from a reputable nursery or nursery supplier, the plants don't always look great in shipping. They won't over-load them with fertilizers like garden centers do, and they're not pruned for a full shape. They don't compromise plant vigor for appearance. A lot of people are shocked that they can spend $500 and get a small bundle of sticks in the mail, lol. But that bundle of sticks will grow faster and become more productive than 5'+ potted fruit trees you buy at a nursery for ten times the price. Appearances are definitely deceiving.

Since Millers got bought out by Stark Bros, I think Burnt Ridge nurseries has become my new favorite (though Starks is still pretty good, if over priced). Raintree Nurseries is also ok, but the quality seems hit or miss on some of the plants lately, and for the prices they charge, it should be flawless. They might have simply had a bad year, so I'll try them again this year.

One thing worth mentioning: Northern Blueberries don't yield nearly as much as southern varieties (relative to their size). Get 50 plants to start. I like the Rubel Variety. Strong in Zone 4, disease resistant, and higher in all the nutrients than other mainstream cultivars. It's a very small blueberry (pea-sized), but I find it has the most flavor. With that variety, at maturity, we're looking at 10-15lbs of fruit per plant each year. That sounds like a lot, but even netted, the birds seem to get a lot of them. Even my dog will eat any he can reach. They won't all ripen at once, and you'll have good years and bad years... a bad year may only produce 20% of the potential. (other cultivars are more reliable, but require more care)

You need to overshoot your goals pretty significantly to get continuous production. Figure 200lbs is a good target yield for an average household in a year. By the time they're preserved (Jams, frozen, dehydrated for baking etc) that's really not a lot.


Offline PorcupineKate

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 03:01:44 PM »
Bakers Creek Seeds has Hardy Kiwi.  They are selling 3 plants for $15.00  2 female and 1 male.
http://www.rareseeds.com/kiwi-hardcollection-3-plants-ships-april-june-/

There are also a bunch of great deals on stuff that grows in zone 4-5 from the NH nursery.
http://www.nhnursery.com/


Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 04:17:11 PM »

 I have kiwi, but have not gotten any fruit yet .. The plants are between 2 and 4 years old I estimate, the older ones are in maine. Many are 6 feet tall or more. I have male plants, but in some cases I may have gotten mixed up as to which are male though I put rocks around the base of the male plants

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 06:06:56 PM »
Kiwi are 3-7 years from seed to fruiting. They should be starting up for you any time now. The biggest problem is how early they set flowers. The vine is hardy, but not the flower, so a couple warm weeks followed by a cold snap will cost you all of your fruit. It's best to monitor the weather forecasts and cover them up on nights that drop below 40°F.

Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2016, 10:29:18 PM »

 I have not had an easy time doing cuttings. I took some cuttings for elderberry, stripped off the leaves and put them in an area that had plenty of shade in wet soil. They seemed to stay alive for quite awhile, and perhaps had some buds or even a small leaf that I had left on that stayed green, but they eventually died. If there is a super easy method I would like to know


 Where can you get paw paw seeds for a good price ? It seems even some seeds are not cheap. I find planting seeds in pots is easier because if I plant stuff in the ground I have to keep looking to see if it's coming up and other things may be coming up there as well. Even if I put out markers, the rain can wash them away or wash off the label. It takes alot of extra effort, though for paw paw perhaps I could do that if it would grow from seed in zones 4-6 ..


Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2016, 12:30:18 PM »
Elderberry is difficult to start from cuttings, it's better taken from the root. Kiwi on the other hand... try to stop it from rooting, lol. You might have more success with layering. Just stake one vine to the ground, and cover with compost, leaving just the tips sticking up out of the soil.

If propagation is a subject of interest, you may want to check out the American Horticultural Society's Guide to Plant Propagation. It gets revised every few years, so you can find used copies (from libraries) for a few dollars on Amazon (color print hardcover book). That book is the go-to for nurserymen in training... how to propagate damn near any garden plant. It's more geared towards traditional garden plants, many of the more esoteric edibles, non-domesticated species and permaculture favorites are not really covered. However, the techniques can be applied successfully once you've gotten a handle on when to use specific methods.

For seeds, I found this (old post, but might be worth checking out):
http://www.biodiverseed.com/post/81681239271/grow-the-paw-paw-or-indiana-banana-for-free-with

This is one of many such projects aimed at collecting seeds from donors or universities and redistributing them. They all ask for a donation (essentially to cover postage for you and someone else who can't pay).

The best method is to establish some barter contacts. You can barter with commercial vendors, not just individuals.

Found this seller, decent price and feedback (though not very specific on the cultivar).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-Fresh-Paw-Paw-Fruit-Tree-Seeds-Pawpaw-The-Indiana-Banana-New-Crop-Seeds/111803155666?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35721%26meid%3D8ff566127e1245eab7f1104e8f2e6317%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D401026447294

This site has by far the greatest number of cultivars, the prices are reasonable (for trees, no seeds), though I have not purchased from them before. However, since they seem to specialize in this crop, it's a safe bet these will be properly grown and shipped. Might be worth emailing them for some more info.
https://onegreenworld.com/product-category/fruiting-trees-shrubs/pawpaw/

Don't rule out just asking people outright for free seeds, lol. It works. Don't lie to them or try to play yourself off as a non-profit (I've seen people do that, it's kinda scummy). I'm just honest.

When you find a prospective source, just send them an email explaining that you're starting up a new homestead and looking for plants and plant suppliers. Cash is a bit tight, but you're hoping they can donate some of the old seeds which might otherwise be discarded. Your objective is to produce food for yourself and your family, but any surplus you grow which you cannot use will be donated to a local food bank. Sometimes, they'll tell you to "#@%! Off", but a lot of businesses will send you insane amounts of seeds. A lot of viable but old seed really does just end up in the trash at the end of the season, and most of these places would prefer it goes to feed people than letting it go to waste.

It doesn't hurt to ask. In some cases, while they may not be willing to give away product, they might cut you a deal. Greenhouse space is a precious resource for growers, and they often have plants which just don't sell very well. If they can clear out a full greenhouse before winter (not having to heat it), and still cover their expenses, they're very willing to deal.

Offline 11steve11

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 02:52:20 PM »
Burnt ridge also sells paw paw seeds, I think ours were $3 for 10 seeds.  Also, a few weeks back, Jack had a guest from New Farm Supply who offered a big discount on stuff, we bought a 10 pack of Paw paws from them that I see is $49 right now. They also have honey berries and kiwi.  Our plants haven't been delivered yet this year so I have no endorsement for or against.
Likewise I stumbled on Twisted tree farm out of NY. They appear to be worth a look.

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2016, 06:38:33 PM »
Nice tip on Twisted Tree Farms. I've never heard of them, but they're only about 2 hours away from me. Awesome selection of apple scions, I may throw them some business. I also like their "work in trade" policy, lol. If I didn't have so much to do on my own land, I might take them up on that for a day. That's the kind of place I want to give my business to.

Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2016, 10:37:03 PM »
 I did try planting some kiwi cutting in a pot last year .. I may want to try to do cuttings off of some male plants to make sure there is enough of those. Is there any way to tell a male kiwi from appearance ?

 My contract got extended so I may order some seedlings even though I have to be careful because my knee still bothers me, though smaller seedlings require digging a smaller hole ..

 I like the New Farm Supply .. not bad deals for 10 plants of various types .. thanks .. I also order stuff from Oikos sometimes ..

 I am thinking chestnut, plum, paw paw, persimon, chinqapin, blueberry .. possibly apple

among persimon, chestnut, apple, chinqapin, and blueberry, and plum which are more
 shade tolerant and/or easily transplantable ? My mother's backyard has alot of places to plant, but it only gets partial sun .. I like to plant seedlings, let them grow for awhile and then move them someplace else .. My yard has more sun and I have 1/2 acre .. Some places require more digging and sod breaking though .. I can use my yard as a nursery and move stuff to maine later or just leave it


 I sometimes seem to order too much stuff and then have to scramble to dig holes and find places to plant everything 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 10:58:51 PM by surfivor »

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 09:29:19 AM »
Blueberry you never want to transplant. If you intend to move it, grow it in a 30 Gallon pot instead. If you disturb the roots (even by digging near it), you can forget about production for 3-5 years.

Chestnut and Chinquapin will send down a taproot. If you're just growing them out for a season, you can move them. Any more than that, leave them alone (take cuttings, but don't try uprooting the plant).

Pawpaw similarly, you can transplant in the first season if you must, but after that, it'll just kill it.

Apple, persimmon and plum you can transplant. Just use a dwarf rootstock grafted varieties, and in the first 3-4 years, you keep pruning it for shape (don't worry about getting apples yet). By keeping it small, the roots will stay small.

Maybe look into the "Pot-in-pot-in-ground" method used by nurseries if you intend to transplant seedlings later on.

For shade tolerance, Pawpaw are when young (but need full sun as they mature, so only low shade will do). Same with Blueberry. Everything else on your list will do better in full sun. For shade, look at berry bushes. Fruit trees all like sun, Pawpaw is a rare exception, it evolved separately from all other fruit trees which share a common origin between the mediterranean and India. Fruit trees had not yet evolved from nuts when the continents divided, so it's the only true American native fruit tree. The rest of our "natives" were brought over by the native americans from Asia, the vikings, and European settlers. The continental US, Mexico and Canada have herbaceous fruit (similar to banana, cacti, fruiting vines, berry bushes). The North Eastern US is perfect for all manner of shade-tolerant berries.

Blueberry, Cranberry, Lingonberry, Wintergreen, Honeyberry, raspberry, wineberry, blackberry, boysenberry, loganberry, aronia, elderberry, seabuckthorn, currants, gooseberry, jostaberry, strawberry, rose hips, nannyberry, autumn olive, serviceberry, cornelian cherry, etc.

Light is critical for the production of sugars, so fruit grown in shade tends to be very bland (fresh cranberries) or very bitter (Coffee).


Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2016, 06:02:00 AM »
Is there any place I can get autumn olive seedlings for something like $3 a piece ? It seems interesting as it adds nitrogen to the soil, but alot of places charge quite a bit for plants.

I saw Burnt Ridge has various chestnuts for $4 per seedling and American persimmon at $2.50 a seedling. I like those prices and will probably get a bunch of those.

 I will probably get the 10 paw paw from New Farm Supply for $49.

 If I order Paw Paw seeds, I am not sure if they need cold stratification or not but I will probably get some seeds as there seems to be places that sell them 10 for $2. I think I will order 30 seeds

 Thanks to everyone for the useful information, I have been looking at those websites and links
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 06:25:59 AM by surfivor »

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 09:19:49 AM »
For Autumn Olive, buy two plants. You may pay as much as $10 each, but once they fruit the seeds have an amazing germination rate, and they grow very fast.

You may find it difficult to source them depending on your state of residence. They are considered "Dangerous Invasives", lol. Of course the reason states in the North East know how easily these things spread is because they planted millions of them in highway medians to stabilize soils. Odds are you can find them growing along the Interstates without much effort.

Offline 11steve11

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2016, 12:50:01 PM »
Burnt ridge has buffalo berry plants for $2.50 or $3 each. These are very similar to autumn olive and all of ours grew vigorously last year. That being said, the 2 autumn olives (ruby and garnet) from burnt ridge put on more growth than the 10 buffalo twigs did combined.  Yea, I paid 5 times more per plant but got 10X the growth. Our garnet is easily 5X bigger than what was planted 9 months ago.

I've got to agree with I.L.W.; look along the roadsides if you live in a state they used them for ground cover.  Or talk with people in your area with goats.  Autumn olive is pretty unknown here while sea buckthorne seems to be a favorite browsing bush by our local goat farmers.

Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2016, 05:56:31 AM »

 How well does Autumn olive do where the soil tends to be wet ?

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2016, 07:43:25 AM »
It grows wet or dry, probably the least picky fruiting plant imaginable. You'd have a hard time not being successful with it.
If it's really wet (surface water for weeks at a time), just make sure the soils are loose (mostly compost). Wet + Clay can be bad when it's just getting established, but it can grow into that environment as long as the initial planting hole has been amended. Just turn in about 4³ft of compost or peat moss when you plant it.

They do very well in full sun (though it is not a requirement). Works very well with Borage & hound's tongue (both in the same family as comfrey, which would work too) as a companion plant grown underneath it.

A lot of nurseries won't ship to the North East, as it's considered an invasive. Burnt Ridge will make an exception, it's on you to abide you local environmental laws (haha... yeah sure, as if it's not already growing everywhere around here).

I did a bit of research into where they were planted by states. If you're looking for a place to take cuttings, It was planted along Interstate 90, connecting Boston and Seattle, I10 between Texas and California, I5 from San Diego to Canada, and probably many more. I don't know any South East locations in the US, but considering how those states have it labeled as "invasive" too, I suspect it wouldn't be hard to find.  It was used for erosion control and slope stabilization when the roads went in. You'll find it on the roadside and in medians just about anywhere the road has a steep side grade. As I understand it, It's being removed by the chain-gangs along I10, so it might be a bit more scarce in some of the desert regions, but they're probably just cutting it to the ground, which won't kill it.

Steve is absolutely correct about sea buckthorn. It is a nitrogen fixer like autumn olive (filling the same niches with it's size and growth rate). The fruit taste better, are overall healthier (though it's not a direct comparison as they have different nutrients), is easier to control, and also makes great livestock fodder. They're a little more picky about climate. I wouldn't spend money on them above Zone 7a, but Zones 2b - 6b they grow very well. The only pain with seaberry is my geese love to eat the leaves in the spring and will strip the whole plant. They need to be fenced from poultry for at least 3 years.


Offline 11steve11

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2016, 03:14:08 PM »
We got our New Farm Supply order of 10 pawpaws (among other things). These are different than the ones gotten from burnt ridge, the taproot wasn't as long.  I agree with Jack on the quality though...outstanding, they were strong and healthy looking plants.  I'll post when they start doing something

Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2016, 04:50:40 PM »

 Burnt Ridge lists one of it's Autumn Olives as zone 7-10, others have no zone listed. Either that is wrong or it depends on what type. Because of uncertainty with that I hadn't ordered any but didn't see any other places that had any in stock either

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2016, 11:26:37 PM »
Yeah, there are over 50 common species (and dozens of named cultivars for each). Things like Goumi are hardy to Zone 6 and higher.

You're looking for "Elaeagnus Umbellata".  The fruit are smaller than the others species, but they're hardy to Zones 3-8. I actually picked up a couple from BurntRidge last year for comparison to the wild ones I've cultivated. They're the exact same thing, but they're kicking ass now in Zone 4, just starting to leaf out coming into their second year, and have tripled in size since planting. 

Offline Marinesg1012

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2016, 05:53:54 AM »
I dont think pawpaws go below zone 6/7 if you can get them to grow in ME let me know becuase I want to get some for NH but I havent found anything for Zone 5B.

Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2016, 08:57:56 AM »
I dont think pawpaws go below zone 6/7 if you can get them to grow in ME let me know becuase I want to get some for NH but I havent found anything for Zone 5B.

Ben Falk grows Paw Paw in central Vermont and Lee Reich grows them near Poughkipsy NY

I had a disagreement with my sister. She has Russian Olive on her property in Utah and says it's invasive and the birds spread the seeds everywhere. I told her that Ben Falk loves the stuff and is considered one of the best Permaculture guys in the world. She told me to talk to some other people, but the people she mentioned would probably be those types that think nothing should be planted anywhere except where it is native etc .. But how do you manage the stuff ? It seems like you could cut it with a chain saw or that it would help in various ways to create shaded areas, biomass etc

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2016, 12:39:44 PM »
Quote
I dont think pawpaws go below zone 6/7

I have pawpaw in zone 4. They are more difficult to establish the cooler you get. Most nurseries sell very small plants (big paw paw don't transplant well), and the smaller plants need more shelter from frost and wind. They'll play it safe with the hardiness zone listing so they don't have to insure plants sold to novice gardeners. They're not like an apple tree that you can just toss in a hole and expect it to grow. In cooler climates, site preparation needs to be done perfectly.

Buy the hardiest one you can find and do a fall planting, but establish the planting site months ahead of time. No competing grasses (a heavy mulch layer), lots of compost, 7+ hours of sunlight at the equinox, a good block from the prevailing winds in summer and winter, and bring in non-chlorinated irrigation.

Quote
I had a disagreement with my sister. She has Russian Olive on her property in Utah and says it's invasive and the birds spread the seeds everywhere. I told her that Ben Falk loves the stuff and is considered one of the best Permaculture guys in the world. She told me to talk to some other people, but the people she mentioned would probably be those types that think nothing should be planted anywhere except where it is native etc .. But how do you manage the stuff ? It seems like you could cut it with a chain saw or that it would help in various ways to create shaded areas, biomass etc

She is correct, wildlife will spread the seed and it germinates very readily.  However, there are a few additional considerations:

• The US Government planted it throughout most of the country in incredible numbers already. You're not capable of introducing it to an area, it's already there (at least in the 48 states).

• There is a difference between rural, suburban and urban plantings. In a 3-5 acre suburban back yard, the seeds don't really spread that far. In the north, they're off the plant before any of the big bird migrations. The birds that eat them stay in the area (other suburban lots with manicured lawns where they cannot get established). If you're in rural areas adjacent to large, unmanaged wilderness plots, they will infiltrate the area. But again, they're already there.

• Several species of Elaeagnus are native to the US. Someone who's on the fence about planting them could consider one of those species which are just as fast to spread, fix just as much nitrogen, have the same growth rate and form... the problem with the Russian Olive is that it handles drought better and can move into desert areas where there is no native form.

Take for example Elaeagnus commutata (American Silverberry) http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=ELCO
Native form of Silverberry. It's virtually identical to autumn olive. It's native... supposed to be here. It's hardy in Zones 2-6, so it won't spread into desert areas readily. Growing russian olive in Utah doesn't make it an invasive, it has a close cousin which thrives there. It's not displacing anything and is supporting the same plant and wildlife relations as the native variety. If it were planted in New Mexico, that's a different story. However, those incidents are overhyped as well.

What if we applied the same sentiments to people? White people belong in cooler regions, and darker people in hot regions because that's where they have evolved physical traits and cultural interactions with the local ecosystems. Would she make that argument? If I moved a native person from Caracas to Moscow and they start breeding there, would it dilute and displace the native culture? No, they would gradually integrate. They might make a minor impact on the native culture... perhaps a Venezuelan restaurant or two, but it's still Moscow, the natives aren't being cannibalized, lol. If they can adapt to the region's culture, they will thrive and if they cannot, they will languish.  It's the same thing with plants. So the native vs non-native arguments cannot be substantiated as a moral argument. Sure, if we take a bunch of ebola patients from Libya and ship them to Guam... shit's going to go badly, lol. There are risks to introducing extra cultural elements, but severe consequences are incredibly rare and usually only happen when introducing huge numbers of a species, all at once to areas they are not native.

There's nothing wrong with applying forethought, considering possible consequences and trying to preempt any damage before introducing a non-native species. Sometimes the best action will be not to introduce it. But it merits consideration. Exclusion by default is not well considered or practical. It's emotional. People don't want to be blamed for damage they cannot foresee, so they object without doing any evaluation of the facts. It's lazy ecology masquerading as righteousness.

The proper method to evaluate these situations is to create a test site representative of the target ecosystem and introduce the plant, observing it's impact on the ecosystem relative to control group. I've not seen this in most cases of non-native hysteria, and am aware of no such test site with Elaeagnus. Kudzu is the most famous example in the US where tests have show it to be detrimental to the local ecology, but that only prompted states to do mass sprayings of herbicides which killed vastly more natives than the actual kudzu invasion did, lol. After removal of kudzu, municipalities found problems with their water quality due to fertilizer run-off from fields and oil-shed from roadways which the kudzu was actually fixing for them. In some ways it's was a problem, but in others, it was a solution. Now many places are re-planting it as they've so poisoned the ground, there are no natives left to protect and they're being overburdened with toxic runoff.

Another is Air-potato in Florida, that's actually a problem in some areas (though not all areas as some alledge). In spite of the problems it's created, it's providing food for native wildlife which was previously stressed by lack of food due to human development of the land. So it's harmful in one way, but helpful in another. It's never as easy as marking things as "Good plant" / "Bad Plant".

There's a lot of non-native propaganda out there, and in some cases, they're based on nuggets of truth, the arguments are plausible and real-world problems can be attributed to cases of improper introduction of species. But these arguments are rarely objective, they'll tell you the problems, but make no mention of the benefits. Many of the studies which explore these topics are logically tainted, designed to support a preconceived argument for or against the subject species. Many of the arguments as based in the hypothetical with no studies to back them. That doesn't mean they're always wrong, they are often correct in their assessments, but there is no universal truth that anything non-native is inherently bad.

In this case, I believe your sister has heard the argument's against it, and they are plausible. She has some experience with how easily the plant reproduces and would urge caution. I actually agree with her, she is taking a sensible approach. But that's not to say you should write off the plant all together. You know the pros and the cons, it's up to you to weigh them and make your own decision.

As for controlling the plant, simple: harvest the berries. Birds turn to them late in the season when they're dried. If you harvest, they won't get many of them. If 1,000 seeds get spread, maybe one will survive to maturity. Toss some bird netting over them in the winter.  Use one of the native cultivars so the spread is of a native species. Ultimately, you're not introducing it to your location either way, it's already there. You're just locating it on your land so you can reap the benefits. You can prune it and use the cuttings for biomass, it's a fast grower, never out-grows a wood chipper, composts readily, creates shade, is good for the bees, fixes nitrogen... In the end, there are a million things you could plant which would be far worse. Honeyberry fills the same niche and is much more invasive in your area, killing off native bush honeysuckles, yet if you planted a 1,000 of them, nobody would say anything about it because there are yet advocacy groups against it.

Offline Marinesg1012

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2016, 10:00:24 PM »
I stand corrected then anyone have links to the hardier variety's of paw paws? I have some good areas closer to the house that would work well.

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2016, 01:33:15 AM »
I ordered some more this year from Stark Bros. Haven't arrived yet, but I've been using them for years, and Miller Nurseries before that (now owned by Stark). They always have good tree quality and a decent warranty.

http://www.starkbros.com/products/fruit-trees/pawpaw-trees/saa-overleese-pawpaw


Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2016, 09:03:57 AM »

 I got 10 paw paw from new farm supply about a week ago. These where much larger than many I have gotten before. They where nearly two feet tall. Since they are that big, I am hoping they will handle more sun than the tiny ones. I am going to transplant several of them to Maine in a few weeks .. They seem to be alive as they look like they are getting small growths off of the stem since I put them into the ground or pots

 I also planted Chinese chestnut along an edge of sumac. I am hoping these will grow big enough to shade out the sumac and other invasives back in there

Offline surfivor

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2016, 09:48:48 AM »
 I have 2 blueberry bushes in my side lawn that have barely been holding on. I planted them a couple of years ago. There's alot of sun there and it's probably too alkaline for them because my property is probably part landfill . Maybe I should move those someplace else and put a couple paw paw in there instead ? The paw paw I got are between 2 and 2.5 feet tall. Just stems with no branches. Since there are that big, perhaps they will hold up in the sun. I ordered 10 paw paw, but I think they sent me a few extra

That is what I am considering doing this weekend

Offline I.L.W.

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2016, 11:41:08 AM »
10 is a lot, lol.

Considering you have several, I would plant them in various locations in sets of 3. That way if one dies, there are still two right next to each other. Try one grouping in full sun, one in heavy shade, and another in a part sun location. Just play the odds. If you get two mature trees out of it, that's more fruit than you'll ever need. The fruit are only good for a couple of days (so preserving, transport and sale of surplus are impractical), and each tree yields a huge amount of fruit. You can eat maybe 20 when they're in season, and the rest are for the chickens and pigs. You might find a market for seeds to sell on Amazon, but even then you'll have a huge surplus. As long as you get some success, you'll be in a good situation. Even an 80% die-off will leave you with surplus.

The big thing is getting a taproot established. Once that main root is mature, the plants become a lot more durable. Just dig the planting hole very deep and fill with loose soil and sand. Really baby it for the first couple of years and they'll do just fine.


Offline 11steve11

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Re: good deals on blueberry, paw paw, kiwi seedlings ?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2016, 12:28:37 PM »
The New Farm Supply apples and paw paws are all looking great, they are vigorously leafing out and adapting to where they've been planted.
Only half of the Osage Orange have leaves on them, I'll keep an eye out.
We got the hardy kiwi package (6F 2M) from Direct Gardening, not overly impressed with their business yet people I work with say for the price they are happy with the 80%-90% survival rate. The kiwis are doing great and 1 appears to be aggressively climbing up the support. Considering they were 1/3rd the cost of anywhere else I looked I'm ok with that.

To help with understanding the environment the little ones were put in; all of our plants are on drip irrigation lines with dribblers set around 1 GPM depending on the plant. Our 1/2 acre sits on an old river rock quarry and in some spots the topsoil is nearly 2 inches deep and alkaline. For trees we dug down around 2-3 feet and back fill with mature compost and then have layers of organic matter on top. We are high desert so we have hot dry summers (95-110 daily)  then can have sustained windy dry below freezing winters; so needless to say we are protecting them from these extremes.