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Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => Emergency Preparations => Topic started by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 10:21:02 AM

Title: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 10:21:02 AM
Here's an issue I struggle with as a Christian.  I spend time and money prepping, build up a food storage, fuel, water, guns & ammo and for what? 

When SHTF I will have 2 choices...
1. Give it to anyone that asks for a handout, eventually depleting my supply and starving my family.
2. Defend it with deadly force, raising moral issues.

What's the proper Christian thing to do given the above two choices.  You can wrangle the question around, but in the end those are the only two choices.  Sure, I will give what I can, but the demand will easily overcome the supply I have.

So can anyone show me Biblical evidence to support either position?
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Sweethearts Mom on December 05, 2010, 10:49:03 AM
Jack talks a lot about prepping for others as well. I am a christian also and I am prepping of course for my family and extended family, but also for my immediate neighbors too.

Beyond that I do believe in deadly force to protect my family. I truly believe that if I am ever in that postion, I will hear God and know what to do.

I truly hope I am never put in a situation to prove that though.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: rustyknife on December 05, 2010, 01:41:27 PM
Good question. I strugle somewhat with those questions also. My wife and I have been prepping for years and much to my frustration my brothers and her brothers and sisters do not.

I will reasearch this better and provide a Biblical answer to the best of my understanding. In the meantime if the SHTF I will help where I can, however, roving groups of zombies that try to take stuff or hurt my family or me will be met with deadly force. At that point it will be their choice to advance or retreat.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Dainty on December 05, 2010, 01:45:08 PM
I truly believe that if I am ever in that postion, I will hear God and know what to do.

This.

I do not have a cut and dried answer for you. But I have pondered the matter, so here are a few of my thoughts.

The Biblical response in times of famine or other food shortage is often miraculous provision. Pharaoh was given the dreams and Joseph to interpret them so that they would store up sufficient food that the region would not starve. (BTW, note that Joseph didn't hand out the food for nothing.) Elijah was provided bread and meat twice a day by ravens, and later he and a widow and her son miraculously had barely enough flour and oil of one more meal--day after day after day. (Note that in this story the miracle did not happen until after the widow had given Elijah the very last of her food to eat.) Jesus fed large crowds of thousands with just a few loaves and fish--twice--and provided the fisherman with nets so full they were breaking after fishing all night and catching nothing. In other words, the Biblical answer is that in times of impossible need, God will miraculously provide.

The answer goes against all earthly logic, but it's spelled out clearly in Scripture. Jesus says, "Ask, and it will be given to you...which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" He also says, "Do not worry about your body, what you will eat...for the pagans run after all these things and your heavenly father knows that you need them. But seek first His Kingdom, and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." In other words, we are called to trust God and pursue Him above our earthly needs, and He will provide them.

That isn't to say we shouldn't prepare. I wouldn't be on this forum if I believed that. :) But what it is saying is that when there's an impossible situation regarding legitimate needs such as food, put your hope in God first, and He will resolve it.

I'm reminded of a story I read about Corrie Ten Boom. Her sister, Nollie, firmly believed that it was immoral to lie, no matter what the consequences. It was inevitable, then, when the Nazis came searching for the Jews they were hiding that Nollie was asked a direct question. She answered it truthfully, and as a result she was arrested and the Jew she was protecting at the time, Annaliese, was taken to a location where people were then transported to concentration camps. Corrie and others were appalled at what her commitment to honesty had cost and were even more upset that Nollie seemed not the slightest bit bothered by it. By way of explanation she reassured them: "No ill will happen to Annaliese. God will not let them take her to Germany. He will not let her suffer because I obeyed Him."

Six days later they learned there had been a breakout at the location. 40 Jews had been rescued--among them was Annaliese.

Now personally, I would have lied and I believe it is moral to lie in such situations. But the point of the story was that God did protect miraculously when people sought first to obey Him even when that resulted in what seemed like certain death for an innocent person.

For the scenario of either give away all your food or defend with deadly force, I can see myself doing one or the other depending on a multitude of factors. I would seek out alternative options whenever possible, for example give away all your food but have hidden caches of more so that you and your family don't starve, or convince the community to come to an agreement about rationing the volunteered food stores (the Chilean minors survived due to strict rationing), or, ideally, preparing your community so well that the ants outnumber the grasshoppers. But if the chips were down and there were no alternative options, I would do what I was certain God was calling me to do at that time, being prepared for both possibilities.

The best that we can do is prepare as much as possible and trust God will lead us when it comes to those impossible decisions, and that He is capable of providing for our needs even out of thin air.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 04:19:54 PM
Dainty,
Thanks for a well thought out reply.  There definitely is no "cut and dry" answer to the question, but it still bears pondering.

I can't put it so eloquently as you did, but as I told my wife today at breakfast (I told her about this thread), I've been taught and feel it is 100% correct that a man's duty is to God, Family, Country in that order.

My natural inclination will be to defend my family from all harm to the death, so God will need to yell to get my attention if he wants me to lay down. 

I don't believe he would allow me to do what's right in my own mind unless I have closed him out of my life.  Knowing that I'm counted as one of his, Jesus says no man can take me from his flock so if I believe that I'm doing right all the while asking God's guidance... I gotta believe he will correct me as one of his own at that moment if I'm indeed doing my will and not his.

Until He tells me his will is not to protect my family, I would advise against any roaming thugs to try and take this ants stash. :)

Unfortunately I live in the middle of "Injun Country" and they all know I was LEO and have been prepping for the past 2 years. 

I'm under surveillance all the time by my "neighbors" (scroats) whom consider me the enemy and will have no issue with combining toward the common interest of taking what I have.

I know how paranoid that sounds, but it's the way it is. 
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Sister Wolf on December 05, 2010, 04:36:06 PM
Do you grow your own food?  Didn't God command farmers NOT to reap the edges of their field for this very purpose?  The Bible DOES talk about this... something about providing for aliens (wanderers) and widows... it's in the old testament, and I'm not Christian, but I'm SURE it's there.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: phuttan on December 05, 2010, 04:43:21 PM
I was raised Catholic and have researched the old Catholic Catecism (spelling) on my own. According to that you are not morally obligated to use deadly force to defend your life, etc unless not using it would cause harm to others. In other words, if you are the only doctor, provider, etc for others, you have a moral obligation to use deadly force if necessary to defend yourself, etc. I apply this to a lot of things. If by inaction you cause someone dependant on you to suffer harm, you have done a moral wrong. If the food you have is necessary to keep your loved ones alive, you must defend it. On the other hand, if you have extra, you also have a moral obligation to help.

I'd say that if possible, store extra of some things that are cheap and long term storable like bulk grains and grow a bigger garden than you need. Then, give out some of the bulk grains and extra produce to those in need and keep your normal food stocks for your family. This will allow you to fulfil both moral obligations without inviting a welfare mentality. Also, offerring to help them get a garden, etc going when they come asking for food, etc should help to satisfy any moral obligation to help them. If they refuse to start there own garden with your help, then you really can't be morally obligated to help those that refuse to help themselves in time of need.

Just my opinion.

Pat
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Sister Wolf on December 05, 2010, 04:45:39 PM
Ah - I found what I was talking about.  It's in Leviticus.

 22 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.’”

So the LORD does talk about providing others with some of your food.  If you drop it (gleanings are stuff dropped by reapers), you leave it for the hungry mother who might find it (or hell, even the thief who is hungry), and you leave the edges of your field in tact for the same reason.

God seems to believe (if people interpreted him correctly) that THAT would be the Christian thing to do.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: phuttan on December 05, 2010, 04:53:03 PM
Very nice Sister Wolf. It's no wonder that your karma is so high.

Pat
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Sister Wolf on December 05, 2010, 04:57:22 PM
Very nice Sister Wolf. It's no wonder that your karma is so high.

Pat

LOL!  Thanks.  I think that was my favorite commandment... or at least the one that stuck with me the most.  We always leave "the edges" of EVERYTHING for somebody else. 

Even if we're shooting, we only pick up most of our brass.   Never all of it.

That's probably taking it a bit far, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a DAMN good rule of thumb for EVERYTHING you do and/or use.  I'm not one to try to interpret your God's mind, but it seems like God was saying (in that whole part of Leviticus) that yeah, some people are gonna die from starvation, or from breaking fundamental rules of law.  But if you at least do SOMETHING to help them, then you're doing what I want.

I like that and I agree with it.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: phuttan on December 05, 2010, 05:15:06 PM
Yah. Also, if we can plant a little extra where it's easier for others to get to, it may be kind of the same. Have extra for others that is easier for them to take and they won't have to take from your main stuff. A small curbside plot so they don't have to come into the yard and take.

Pat
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Nicodemus on December 05, 2010, 05:15:23 PM
Ah - I found what I was talking about.  It's in Leviticus.

 22 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.’”

So the LORD does talk about providing others with some of your food.  If you drop it (gleanings are stuff dropped by reapers), you leave it for the hungry mother who might find it (or hell, even the thief who is hungry), and you leave the edges of your field in tact for the same reason.

God seems to believe (if people interpreted him correctly) that THAT would be the Christian thing to do.

But Leviticus is pre-New Testament. Did God consider it to be Christian before Jesus showed up, or what?  ;D
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: phuttan on December 05, 2010, 05:26:55 PM
Jesus was a Jew that preached his message to followers that were Jews. The Old Testament is from the  Jewish tradition that Christianity was born from. He called for certain changes to things but never said to throw away everything from Jewish tradition. It is definitely part of Christianity. If the spirit of the New Testament doesn't change it, then it is still valid for Christians.

Pat
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 05:31:29 PM
Sister Wolf,
That is a reference I am familiar with and yes it's good practice and God's way to leave the "edges" for the poor.  Take a look at who those edges were suppose to be for... they weren't the neighboring tribes that came in to ransack the place. :)

Nicodemus,
God changes not.  There is nothing in the OT that is not as true today as it was then.  I like the expression that the OT is a shadow of what Christ came to show us.  The sacrifices of animals begin a shadow of Christ's sacrifice being a key image.

Many want to claim that God would never justify a war like he did in Israels day and take "love thy enemy" to an extreme that is in direct contradiction with the OT and the "ensamples" as Paul said it was to us.

Like I said in the OP... I'm not talking about not having charity, that is a core tenement to the faith.  I'm talking about being a "lamb led to the slaughter" situation.

Our Farther in heaven shows his love to his own in that they are blessed when they follow him.  We as a nation no longer do that and thus are not being blessed with his grace, but punished by our own sin just as Israel did so many times in the OT.

Remember Phineous? (sp?) who ran the adulterers in the temple door through with the spear?  Deadly force my friend over perverting God's house.  How much greater would DF be appropriate to prevent the starvation of your family?
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Nicodemus on December 05, 2010, 05:36:30 PM
I guess I'll leave the joking out of this thread...
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 05:39:25 PM
LOL, best done with Religious and Political topics I find. :)
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: phuttan on December 05, 2010, 05:43:23 PM
Also, text can come out so dry and not portray the smile on my face.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Sister Wolf on December 05, 2010, 05:54:20 PM
Sister Wolf,
That is a reference I am familiar with and yes it's good practice and God's way to leave the "edges" for the poor.  Take a look at who those edges were suppose to be for... they weren't the neighboring tribes that came in to ransack the place. :)

Right, but if the neighboring tribes had come in and JUST ransacked the edges of your field (out of hunger, rather than destructive BS)... it serves the same purpose.  I'm absolutely not an expert in the Bible.  I'm just sayin'.  I can't imagine a God who would be pissed at you for protecting your children.  Something tells me that there are numerous stories in the bible were "killing" happened to protect a tribe, a family, even a daughter or two.  NOT murder.  Killing.  There's a difference.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Pathfinder on December 05, 2010, 06:00:07 PM
One of the many things that became apparent in studying the Men's Fraternity course is that men have a responsibility to their families first and foremost. As Genesis 2 and 3 tell us, men are to be the leaders and the guides for their family, it is their responsibility. So preparing for a collapse or some need is clearly the man's responsibility, helped and aided by his wife, and the 2 of them working together as such a team to produce the results.

This responsibility extends to keeping them safe and secure as well, so if the hordes come, DF is clearly allowed. If the Nth family in need comes along, the same applies if supplies are running low or are in question for survival of the family.

It's been a long day, I have been on my feet for most of it, so I can't quote too much chapter and verse beyond that. There is one that is rather obvious for us preppers:

Proverbs 21:20 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

 20 The wise store up choice food and olive oil,
   but fools gulp theirs down.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: PAGUY on December 05, 2010, 06:04:49 PM
Well anyone can put a spin on the bible to make it say anything that they want it to.  In the end you should help others  but, you should start at home.  At least that is how I feel about it.  My family and I come first.  We have stored away items for us but, at the same time we have put away a little extra for others.  If others that are close to us need then we will help but, there is a limit to it. 
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Storm on December 05, 2010, 06:09:20 PM
Right, but if the neighboring tribes had come in and JUST ransacked the edges of your field (out of hunger, rather than destructive BS)... it serves the same purpose.  I'm absolutely not an expert in the Bible.  I'm just sayin'.  I can't imagine a God who would be pissed at you for protecting your children.  Something tells me that there are numerous stories in the bible were "killing" happened to protect a tribe, a family, even a daughter or two.  NOT murder.  Killing.  There's a difference.

I think there's some validity to this, but...I don't know. There are other ways to handle this question.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 06:13:29 PM
Right, but if the neighboring tribes had come in and JUST ransacked the edges of your field (out of hunger, rather than destructive BS)... it serves the same purpose.  I'm absolutely not an expert in the Bible.  I'm just sayin'.  I can't imagine a God who would be pissed at you for protecting your children.  Something tells me that there are numerous stories in the bible were "killing" happened to protect a tribe, a family, even a daughter or two.  NOT murder.  Killing.  There's a difference.

I might be twisting your words here and I apologize if that's the case as I'm not 100% sure of what you are trying to say, but we can use the argument of "sacking the edges" in justification that I'm fending for my family to go into the neighbor's field and steal food for them and kill for that food if I were to take it to the extreme.

Most dirt-bags will have no issues with using that rational, Christians should.  

Let's suppose that as a Christian I have not prepared by being a good steward of what God has given me, or have nothing to survive on for whatever reason then God will direct me to a field that is has surplus (providing out of nothing so to speak) I believe.

Problem is... my field ain't got any edges to gleem from, and to take away from the short harvest I have is to take food from the mouths of my family which I agree is not God's intent unless the situation is specific to me and he makes it clear that I'm to surrender what I have to others.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 06:18:22 PM
Can I make a request as the OP?

Can we please refrain from sidetracking the discussion as so often happens in threads about Christianity?

While I appreciate the opinions, Biblical backing (i.e. verses, examples) are what I'm looking for that you use to justify your position on the question.

Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 06:20:10 PM
Well anyone can put a spin on the bible to make it say anything that they want it to.  In the end you should help others  but, you should start at home.  At least that is how I feel about it.  My family and I come first.  We have stored away items for us but, at the same time we have put away a little extra for others.  If others that are close to us need then we will help but, there is a limit to it. 

What Biblical references do you as a Christian use to determine who is helped first and at what point do you justify killing to help others?
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Sister Wolf on December 05, 2010, 06:23:06 PM
Umm, no... I never advocated stealing.  THOU SHALT NOT STEAL is a direct commandment from God.  I was saying that in your situation, and this is only if I understand God's words, you would not be out of line, protecting the food YOU have worked honestly to provide your family with.

oregon, you can most certainly make any request you want.  I'm sorry I got involved at all.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Storm on December 05, 2010, 06:28:18 PM
I know it isn't Biblical in nature, but I think it applies in this situation:

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."


Supposing you meet someone during a SHTF scenario, of any kind, and initially don't have any bad feelings about them, I think this would be advantageous to both parties. Take some one on, if they're skilled that's even better, and SHOW them how to do for themselves. While you may initially use some of your preps to help them, think of what you can get back in return with the strength of another person's back. This is how I always see these scenarios ending, or at least to some extent, making a new beginning.

Preps aren't just food, and tools and guns and ammo. They're knowledge. Of which this particular forum is full of. Knowledge is a prep and "knowledge is of no value unless you put it into practice."



EDIT: Sorry Oregon, I didn't see your earlier request for Biblical references, I just thought this particular stance, for me, works in conjecture with my beliefs.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: PAGUY on December 05, 2010, 06:31:50 PM
I do not claim to be the best person to quote the bible.  I am saying that I am a christian and as a christian I was always taught to help others that are not as fortunate as myself (and my family).  My own personnel morals and ethics tell me that family comes first and if that includes defending my families ability to survive with what ever force is necessary then that is what will happen.  If that makes me a bad christian then I guess that I will get in the "no Go" line with many others on here.  
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 06:39:19 PM
Umm, no... I never advocated stealing.  THOU SHALT NOT STEAL is a direct commandment from God.  I was saying that in your situation, and this is only if I understand God's words, you would not be out of line, protecting the food YOU have worked honestly to provide your family with.

oregon, you can most certainly make any request you want.  I'm sorry I got involved at all.

Sister,
I was not referring to you and appreciate your input.  I'm not sure why me wanting to keep the thread on track would make you sorry for getting involved, but that is your right.

I thought that was what you were saying.  I wanted to be sure you weren't advocating that the "edges" references meant that the whole field was fair game for gleemers.  As only 10% was. 

The principle was eventually lost on Israel just are the 7th year rest period for the land and the area became waste land if I understand the history of the region.

PAGUY,
+1
That's how I feel, just looking for Biblical support that it's the Christian thang to do.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 06:40:28 PM
Storm,
I see you changed your response.  Please elaborate?  How would you handle the question?
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Sister Wolf on December 05, 2010, 06:47:42 PM
Sister,
I was not referring to you and appreciate your input.  I'm not sure why me wanting to keep the thread on track would make you sorry for getting involved, but that is your right.

I thought you WERE referring to me.  I was apologizing for getting off track on a thread that you clearly were requesting Christian points of view on.

Quote
The principle was eventually lost on Israel just are the 7th year rest period for the land and the area became waste land if I understand the history of the region.

Yeah, that's too bad.  Greed and/or a lack of understanding.  Well... Now we have a clear idea of WHY that particular commandment was given.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Storm on December 05, 2010, 06:57:13 PM
Storm,
I see you changed your response.  Please elaborate?  How would you handle the question?

My first response was to a Bible-related event, but I didn't have the verses handy, and I saw that we were inf act getting off topic, so I changed it to set it up for my second post which may or may not have worked.

As my second post says, I believe knowledge IS a prep worth sharing. If I find that I can increase my chance, and my family's chance or friends chance of surviving bad times or making any kind of normalcy in a bad situation, I will take it by giving up some of what I may have set aside. On that note, however, if things were to go bad, say, some one I initially built a trust with ended up taking and just bolting...well...I'm not responsible for any one's actions but my own. That's on his head and he'll have to answer for it. If I'm put into that situation I have faith that I will be provided for, most likely through my knowledge of the land. Both knowledge and land given to me by God. In the end, for me, it all works out. I can be ridiculously negative some times, but I'm an optimist at heart.

So, it's hard to break it down more simply for me. Would I help some one? Sure I would. Would I be happy if they decided to stay on and form a semblance of community? Absolutely. Would I berate myself if they just took and left? No, not if I thought, in my heart, that they weren't a down right evil person. But, I wouldn't dwell on it either. I would do what I always do and buckle down and start over.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Dainty on December 05, 2010, 07:04:24 PM
My natural inclination will be to defend my family from all harm to the death, so God will need to yell to get my attention if he wants me to lay down. 

I don't believe he would allow me to do what's right in my own mind unless I have closed him out of my life.  Knowing that I'm counted as one of his, Jesus says no man can take me from his flock so if I believe that I'm doing right all the while asking God's guidance... I gotta believe he will correct me as one of his own at that moment if I'm indeed doing my will and not his.

Until He tells me his will is not to protect my family, I would advise against any roaming thugs to try and take this ants stash. :)

Agreed. The following verse seems applicable and is much in line with what PAGUY was saying: "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." - 1 Timothy 5:8. The context is providing for needs, not necessarily defense. The scenario you put forth is one of the few where protection measures and providing material needs turn out to be the same thing, and that's why it's such a difficult issue to find a hard answer on.

Unfortunately I live in the middle of "Injun Country" and they all know I was LEO and have been prepping for the past 2 years. 

I'm under surveillance all the time by my "neighbors" (scroats) whom consider me the enemy and will have no issue with combining toward the common interest of taking what I have.

A few thoughts...as you're probably already aware, the Bible advocates living at peace with everyone as far as it depends on you (Romans 12:18, Hebrews 12:14). If these people have already decided you're the enemy, then it might be worth it to consider moving in order to facilitate peace. I have some friends that are in a similar boat; their neighbors have become downright hostile and have done dangerously threatening things to them, so even though these friends are living in their dream house they will move because of the neighbors. It isn't a popular option, but if other methods of de-escalating the situation are ineffective it is worth considering. From what I can tell you're watching this confrontation coming from a mile away--wouldn't the wisest and most peaceful option be to avoid it entirely?

All that being said, I think you'd find some good stuff reading through Nehemiah with your situation in mind. It's a great example of using peaceful strategies but being ready to fight, of defending homes and families, of enemies on all sides making trouble, and of God providing throughout it all. I would add some quotes from it but once I get started it's hard to stop, and this post is already long enough. :P
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: NWBowhunter on December 05, 2010, 07:08:04 PM
I think it falls to "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" I expect my preps to help a lot more than myself. Starting with my immediate family that has not prepared. Then my neighbors and any ones else God puts in my path.

It doesn't mean I'm going to give away everything. But I will share my knowledge and skills to help them to provide for themselves.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 07:35:06 PM
Storm,
Quote
I can be ridiculously negative some times, but I'm an optimist at heart.
+1 If it were not for the fact that I believe God is in control I would have built an undeground bunker years ago and removed myself from society. LOL

Dainty,
I am going to start re-reading Nehemiah tonight. Thanks!

My neighbors and I have a mutual agreement to mind our own business that has worked for the past 12 years.  I do know them well enough and their kind (dealt with enough to know) that while we are cordial to each other, there is always a plan to kill each other running in the back of our heads. LOL, yes I'm kidding for the most part.

We were all set to move but the crash has us upside down in the house now and there is no way out short of foreclosure and re-rooting.  I do have a new 28ft trailer and truck to BO with which is a likely scenario in most short term crises.

NWBowhunter,
If God puts a group of armed people in your path that want to take your preps... What do you do?

That's the question, not if we should have charity and give when we can. I'm all about helping my neighbor if I can, but you can only bring so many into the lifeboat before it tips over and everyone in it dies.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Darkwinter on December 05, 2010, 07:44:45 PM
 I look to the bible for inspiration but not as a text book.  The bible has been written and rewritten thousands of times as it has been translated from the original text.  There are also many texts that were written that were not included in the current bible.  And of course there are texts that were written post Christ that appear in other books.

From "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek"  the bible is filled with what seems to be contridictions.

I am a man of faith, but I do not follow the bible as a book of codified laws.  

I would suggest strongly to look to your faith leader and present them with your questions.  They will give you guidence to find the path that you are searching for, but remember that faith is in your heart.  You, will have to find the path that you search for.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 05, 2010, 08:00:57 PM
Darkwinter,
While your points on the various translations and "errors" found in them are valid to an extent, I believe that the Bible is God 's method of speaking to us through the interpretation and guidance of the Holy Spirit (so says the Bible) and is more than an inspirational read.

I don't have a "faith leader" unless you count the words of Christ (back to the Bible again) but will agree that we have to find our own way and that God will answer us in His timing.

I believe "iron sharpens iron" and is why I posted this thread asking Christians for their input. 

Many non-Christians have given excellent advise which I appreciate as they provide "outside the box" viewpoints that sometimes make us re-think our positions BECAUSE it comes from someone other than a "Faith Leader" and is outside our previous thought realm.

In the end we are all required to be Bereans and search the scriptures... asking questions like this in a forum (as shown in this thread) gives us a chance to suggest where the applicable scriptures are.

I have not found a forum that has handled such a potentially heated debat/question as well as this one.  You truly have something unique here and I appreciate the excellent conversation with all of you.
 
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Darkwinter on December 05, 2010, 08:10:00 PM
I suggest going to a "faith leader" simply because they are schooled and devout and as you stated "iron sharpens iron".  What better place to look for answers than a "man of the cloth". 

Exodus, is a place to look for laws, and you can reference Exodus 22:25 - Here it states, in my opinion, that if someone breaks into your home at night, then you cannot be charged with murder if your defend your home:

If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

It also states here that if you find the theif and he cannot reimburse you for damages, that you can sell him into slavery.  Clearly slavery is not moral, so we have to look at this pre-Christ text with a grain of salt.

Like I stated before, I don't think that there are ANSWERS in the text.  If you take a mans life, you will be judged by what was in your heart when it happens.

To me, charity is important. 
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: jbm555 on December 06, 2010, 01:21:10 PM
I found this while I was going through a tough financial spell and was struggling the truth (actually the lie) about tithing. But I think it applies in this case also. 

I Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This doesn't actually state that your family comes before others but if you read the entire verse I believe it implies that your family should come first especially your own household. After that extended family then others. 

However, if you have the means (supplies) and can afford to provide for others I think you should (I would), but not at the cost of your "household". 
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: hobbs67 on December 06, 2010, 02:11:04 PM
Quote
Do you grow your own food?  Didn't God command farmers NOT to reap the edges of their field for this very purpose?  The Bible DOES talk about this... something about providing for aliens (wanderers) and widows... it's in the old testament, and I'm not Christian, but I'm SURE it's there.

You actually see this come up in the New Testament as well when the Pharisees see Jesus' disciples eating from this area on the Sabbath.  I agree that it supports the idea of charity, but at the same time it also supports the idea of property rights.  The owner of the field is allowed to keep the 90% after all.  This is also dealt with in the New Testament in Acts when Ananais and Sapphira are struck down by God after lying to Peter about how much they gave to the Church.  I'm paraphrasing, but Peter says that the money they had was theirs to give or not give, they were not under an obligation, their sin was trying to lie to God about it. 

 Oregonshooter, its a constant question for me and likely for most Christians with an eye toward survival.  I would first say that the repeated strain in my thought process in this regard is my preparation is not for me and my family, its for someone else appointed to use it later, I am hoping that we are not here at that point.

That said, if I am wrong or the calamity is simply a precursor to the final act I break it down as follows:

Is it ok to act in self defense -- To me the answer is clearly yes.  Argue what you will from turn the other cheek and love your enemies, but Jesus also told His disiciples in Luke that a time was coming when He would not be with them and that if they did not have one, sell their cloaks and buy a sword because it would be needed.  Our God is also the same God of David and Joshua, two tough military leaders acting under the direction of God.  The commandment is also not to murder, not to not kill.

Is it okay not to give all we have as charity, pre or post SHTF -- also again my answer would be yes.  Ananias' problem was that he lied to God, not that he didn't give everything.  The rich young ruler is told to give everything away by Jesus not because that is the rule for everyone, Jesus did not tell that to everyone, but because he had made money his idol.  Solomon is written to have been one of the wealthiest men on earth at his time, he got in trouble for his idol worship not his wealth.  Following God in how He leads in this regard would seem to be the point.

How do we draw the line -- thats the hardest answer as I could not possibly imagine seeing people suffer, particularly children and not wanting to do something vs. I could not imagine watching my family starving , but God sometimes has people do things that are incredibly hard. 

This is where I fall back on the God will lead me if I am willing to be lead.....in other words....its not our job to fix what we see as the problem our job is to follow God.

jbm's comment is also agreed with as I believe that we are commanded to take care of our families first, give to the body of believers second and then to your neighbor in need third. 
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Heavy G on December 06, 2010, 03:29:22 PM
Just checking in on a thread with religous content to make sure things stay cool.  So far, so good.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: otowner98 on December 07, 2010, 05:58:32 AM
It technically is geared towards nations, but I would think the Just War Theory could be used as a good framework for a Christian to decide if deadly force was a legitimate option in a given situation.  In a nutshell:

    * the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
    * all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
    * there must be serious prospects of success;
    * the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

I seem to remember having to do just such an exercise in Moral Theology class in high school.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: gobblerblaster on December 09, 2010, 10:28:09 AM
As a Christian who is active in my Church and one that is involved in feeding the needy through another ministry, I may not be an expert on this subject but, I have a "While the Door is Open" policy. In Matthew , JESUS give the parable of the 10 bridesmaids or virgins. In this parable, five of them where wise and five foolish. The wise had enough oil to last until the groom (JESUS) came and the foolish did not. When the shout came that the groom was coming, the wise got up from their sleep and trimmed their lamps and filled their vessels and the foolish ask the wise for oil. The wise did not give to them and they where told to go buy for themselves and while they where gone, the groom opened the door to the wise and shut the door when the five wise where inside and HE would not open the door to the foolish when they returned. While the door is open, I will do what I can to help others and am quick to do so but, once the call goes out
(T.Stuff.H.F.) the door is shut and my responsibility is then to my family and whoever is in my dwelling place. This may seem like a hard thing to some but, the Bible also says (I think in one of the Timothy's) that a man that does not take care of his family will be counted as worse than an Infidel. That includes not only their daily needs but, it is my duty to defend my ability to make that provision. Everyone has had the same opportunity time wise, to make preparations. If they can't see the need or ignore the warning signs and choose not to do the same for their family and themselves than there is nothing I can do. I am at this time, helping my Church family (the one's that will hear) get their houses in order. I am doing and telling anyone that will heed the call but, as they say you will know it is to late to prepare one second after you realize you should have. This is basically where my responsibility ends with people outside my household and family maybe with the exception of widows and orphans but, even at that you have to make sure you can sustain your family first. Just MHO.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Dainty on December 09, 2010, 11:02:48 AM
+1 gobberblaster.

That parable makes it clear that there is a time and a place to refuse helping others.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: inbox485 on December 09, 2010, 12:30:33 PM
There is an inner conflict in every religious or even philosophical text I've seen, the Bible not withstanding. The wisdom is found where the conflict settles into harmony. The bible speaks of having charity for your neighbors and strangers. It also speaks of taking care of your family. Find where those two concepts have harmony and you have your answer.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Storm on December 09, 2010, 01:42:22 PM
Ditto.

The whole thing has kind of degenerated in my mind as to what a single person is going to find acceptable, justified by any thing religious text or not. I know some, even in my family, adhere to the Bible more than I, and I accept that. But a harmonious combination you're comfortable with makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: hobbs67 on December 09, 2010, 03:17:30 PM
Ditto.

The whole thing has kind of degenerated in my mind as to what a single person is going to find acceptable, justified by any thing religious text or not. I know some, even in my family, adhere to the Bible more than I, and I accept that. But a harmonious combination you're comfortable with makes perfect sense.

I guess I would point out that the question is not what you are comfortable with, a person can be comfortable with just about anything but that doesn't make it Biblical. 

gooblerblaster--

 I have always taken the parable of the 10 bridesmaids to have a specific application, personal salvation -- you can't rely on anyone else to prepare you for Jesus' return, but your point is a good and interesting one.

Quote
Everyone has had the same opportunity time wise, to make preparations. If they can't see the need or ignore the warning signs and choose not to do the same for their family and themselves than there is nothing I can do
.

I don't disagree with you and I wish I could be as clear as that, but for me the whole idea of John 3:16 argues against it.  While we were still sinners, God sent his Son to save us...While they are desperate grasshoppers God may still use me....ala Joseph and his brothers.

So I agree with you as to priorities, but I acknowledge that God may have other plans.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Storm on December 09, 2010, 03:41:18 PM
Hobbs,  of all the people I know, all of have varying ways of living life, and of interpreting the Bible. So, they could argue all day about this particular question and find all kinds of justification in Scripture and it's THAT interpretation that will dictate their answer to it and their degree of comfortability in helping or turning away. Then again, most people I know don't look for such cut and dry answers as a yes or a no.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: inbox485 on December 09, 2010, 04:06:22 PM
When I spoke of finding the harmonization point, I was being deliberately vauge. Even when using a religious text as a guide post, the end conclusion is often individually specific to the circumstances. For the sake of examples, I'll give two:

First is there is a major earthquake. I have roughly 6 months worth of food, and full scale disaster relief is expected in no more than 3 weeks. I would reserve about 4 weeks worth and discreetly find needing recipients for the rest (I have established channels for doing that BTW).

Second is there is a prolonged famine due to ______. It is expected that it will be resolved by the next year, but until then stores will be barren and what you have is what you will have to deal with. I have about 6 months of food stored. I'd do what I could to help others (particularly those that would become viable survivors with minimal assistance), but my family will have to come first. Fact is when famines strike, they resolve themselves two ways. First is the cause of the famine is compensated for, and second the population is reduced through a combination of death and/or reduction in new birth.

That to me provides the harmony of loving my neighbor, while fulfilling my responsibility to my family. I will add that the harmony balance shifted radically when I got married. For example there are personal risks I wouldn't have given a second thought to when helping another that I have to consider under a different light given that I have a responsibility to be alive and functional tomorrow.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: JGreene on December 09, 2010, 04:08:48 PM
My only "mandate" is to prep so I'm in a position to be able to help others.  That's all I need.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: gobblerblaster on December 09, 2010, 04:15:06 PM
Well, you know I think survival depends on having cut and dry answers. I have to be able to rely on the answer that I believe the HOLY SPIRIT hands down to me. My Family is what I am responsible for, first and foremost.

 As I said, I am actively ministering to people at this moment in time. I am warning them to stock up and prep. The ants will hear, the grasshoppers won't. At the Ministry we are still helping even the Grasshoppers while the sun is shining and the door is open and the ministry is actively planning for the time when soup kitchens will be needed and we are actively stocking for it. The only thing there is; and I have made it clear to the Pastor there, that I will not be there to help if things get bad in a major way because I will be at home with the gate locked, taking care of my own.

 I also like the Noah reference. Noah built the ark and stocked it, once he and his family where aboard the door was sealed by GOD himself. I can't say for sure but, I think there where probably knocks at that door when the rain came pooring down. When the sun stops shining the door at my little abode is going to slam shut and anyone that approaches will be warned (probably with a shout and a shot). If they proceed GOD help them.

To each his own and everyone has to make this decision for themselves and I would not begin to tell someone that they have to handle this in the exact same way and I can even see that at some point in the game, that I may deviate from this but, what I have laid out is my general plan.

 You all offer some interesting comments though and I have enjoyed everything I have read so far. I am really glad to find a bunch of folks that take this stuff serious. So many that should, do not.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: gobblerblaster on December 09, 2010, 04:23:16 PM
When I spoke of finding the harmonization point, I was being deliberately vauge. Even when using a religious text as a guide post, the end conclusion is often individually specific to the circumstances. For the sake of examples, I'll give two:

First is there is a major earthquake. I have roughly 6 months worth of food, and full scale disaster relief is expected in no more than 3 weeks. I would reserve about 4 weeks worth and discreetly find needing recipients for the rest (I have established channels for doing that BTW).

Second is there is a prolonged famine due to ______. It is expected that it will be resolved by the next year, but until then stores will be barren and what you have is what you will have to deal with. I have about 6 months of food stored. I'd do what I could to help others (particularly those that would become viable survivors with minimal assistance), but my family will have to come first. Fact is when famines strike, they resolve themselves two ways. First is the cause of the famine is compensated for, and second the population is reduced through a combination of death and/or reduction in new birth.

That to me provides the harmony of loving my neighbor, while fulfilling my responsibility to my family. I will add that the harmony balance shifted radically when I got married. For example there are personal risks I wouldn't have given a second thought to when helping another that I have to consider under a different light given that I have a responsibility to be alive and functional tomorrow.
Now I can live with that. I guess I should have said first of all that that was my plan in an all out SHTF scenerio . Of couse  I would help folks in a minor short term emergency and have. We had a major ice storm here in 07 and I think I was the only person that had lamp oil in a two county area that would give it out and I took three familys at different times, into my home,
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Storm on December 09, 2010, 05:12:44 PM
I think we're all pretty close to being in the same ball park in terms of what we'd do, regardless of how we actually get to the decision, using the Bible as a pathway to it, or any other text. The end game, it seems, is the same to most of us.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: hobbs67 on December 09, 2010, 05:23:45 PM
Edit -- reread and this part removed as that came out in message form a lot different than intended. My apologies.

Hobbs

Quote
I also like the Noah reference. Noah built the ark and stocked it, once he and his family where aboard the door was sealed by GOD himself. I can't say for sure but, I think there where probably knocks at that door when the rain came pooring down. When the sun stops shining the door at my little abode is going to slam shut and anyone that approaches will be warned (probably with a shout and a shot). If they proceed GOD help them.

To each his own and everyone has to make this decision for themselves and I would not begin to tell someone that they have to handle this in the exact same way and I can even see that at some point in the game, that I may deviate from this but, what I have laid out is my general plan.  

 You all offer some interesting comments though and I have enjoyed everything I have read so far. I am really glad to find a bunch of folks that take this stuff serious. So many that should, do not.

That's a good one as well.  The angels also didn't have Lot stop to try to help anyone when he left Sodom and turned his wife to salt for not trusting where God was leading so I definitely hear you.  Jesus tells everyone to run directly to hills in the Olivet discourse, not to pass go on the way.  

My only point in my thinking is to try to avoid what I think of the Rawles "Patriots" delusion.  All the retreat folks in the book are pictured as Christian and happy as clams sitting in their retreat (losing weight too, yay!!) as the world around them is dying, including likely family and friends.  God moves as God moves and He may have a radically different plan for the situation....He usually does for me now so why should it be any different later.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Storm on December 09, 2010, 05:26:41 PM
Well, it certainly won't be me who starts a fight here, but while you CAN find cut and dry answers in the Bible, there are numerous contradictions, whether it's OT to NT or book to book. We all worship in our own way, I'm mostly just glad that we worship.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: inbox485 on December 09, 2010, 05:48:02 PM
Inbox --  I don't quite know what to make of what you are saying -  on the one hand you are talking about a "religious text" and the Bible being the same as all the others in search of harmony, entering New Age all paths lead to heaven land, on the other loving thy neighbor?

I won't say it is impossible to get me to speak religiously on a forum, but I can't remember it ever happening either. I have my personal beliefs, but I find civility much more prevalent and threads live longer when forum discussions of religious texts are left at a ethics level. I wasn't lumping religious texts together in a New Age sense. I was simply pointing out a constructional concept common in but not exclusive to the Bible. Loving thy neighbor is probably the secular/ethical hallmark of the entire New Testament.

Well, it certainly won't be me who starts a fight here, but while you CAN find cut and dry answers in the Bible, there are numerous contradictions, whether it's OT to NT or book to book. We all worship in our own way, I'm mostly just glad that we worship.

I've found that the contradictions commonly cited would be better termed conflicts in that they typically don't contradict when taken in context. I do find it interesting that both religious and non religious people often come to the same ethical conclusions when weighing the same totality of circumstances, and that typically where there is a disagreement it stems from a disagreement of the factual existence of one or more of the circumstances.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Dainty on December 09, 2010, 06:13:50 PM
I think we're all pretty close to being in the same ball park in terms of what we'd do, regardless of how we actually get to the decision, using the Bible as a pathway to it, or any other text. The end game, it seems, is the same to most of us.

I disagree--for my part, anyway.

If I felt that God was calling me to give away all my food to strangers and die of starvation myself, I would do so. The theology of Christianity involves "dying to yourself" that is, basically you're no longer living to serve your own wants and needs, and even your own life does not belong to you, but rather to God. So whatever He says goes, even if it results in death.

I know this is controversial, but Christians are called to put serving God even above their own family. That isn't to say you should provide for them (the passage in Timothy is very clear on that point) but rather that if it ever comes down to a choice between family or obedience to God, God is the one you pick. Even if the consequences are drastic. There are people who have been forced to watch while their own children are killed in front of them, all because they refused to deny Christ. It's a horrible thing to be placed in that position, and I know that for those of a different religion or of no religion at all it probably appears wrong to put "religion" above the lives of your own children. The fact is, according to Scripture, their priorities were in the right order.

The difference that I'm seeing is that Christians are willing to lay down their own lives and even the lives of their families for the sake of obeying God, if it comes to that. Thankfully in countries without persecution those situations are currently rare to non-existent. But it can happen post-SHTF, not only with dilemmas about stored food but also questions of helping a stranger stricken with an unknown illness and risk the lives of the group by pathogen.

I think that most scenarios would not be as cut and dried as "I either use lethal force to defend my food or my family dies of starvation." I think in a lot of cases the dilemma could be mitigated through good communication, compromise, hiding food, and such. But if it did come to that? I would do whatever I was certain the Lord was leading me to do at that time. I would pray for guidance, trust that He would not let me err, and do what I thought was best, believing that He will provide. If that meant lethal force to defend my family's dwindling food supply then so be it, and if that meant giving away all our food and then waiting for miraculous provision akin to manna falling from the sky, then so be it. I'd do either one, because I find a biblical basis for both. And when that happens it means I have to rely on the discernment given by the Holy Spirit at that time.

BTW, yes, I do realize that mindset appears to be foolish, naive, extremist, and probably a whole bunch of other things, but I trust that we can stay focused on the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: hobbs67 on December 09, 2010, 06:22:47 PM
Dainty, you said it better than I could.  I'm with Dainty.  (that sounds funny for some reason)

Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: berul on December 09, 2010, 06:24:15 PM
Here is a book that explains the just use of force from a Biblical standing.

http://shop.faithdefenders.com/When_is_it_Right_to_Fight_p/books-colon-whenisitrighttofight.htm (http://shop.faithdefenders.com/When_is_it_Right_to_Fight_p/books-colon-whenisitrighttofight.htm)

The Lord did not tell the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords so they could carve apples
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Storm on December 09, 2010, 06:30:53 PM
I've found that the contradictions commonly cited would be better termed conflicts in that they typically don't contradict when taken in context. I do find it interesting that both religious and non religious people often come to the same ethical conclusions when weighing the same totality of circumstances, and that typically where there is a disagreement it stems from a disagreement of the factual existence of one or more of the circumstances.

You probably said it better than I did, most likely why I try to avoid such talk on the web.

I disagree--for my part, anyway...BTW, yes, I do realize that mindset appears to be foolish, naive, extremist, and probably a whole bunch of other things, but I trust that we can stay focused on the topic at hand.

Just one of those instances where people believe different things. I can accept what you say, I just think differently. Nothing comes between me and my family, heaven or earth, and any decision I make is mine. What happens after is between me and my God.

Actually, I had a lot more I just typed, but in retrospect, I won't be posting it. We'll keep it to the disagreeing part and leave it at that. I've had this discussion with too many clergymen with good results to have it on the internet where it could deteriorate drastically.



In regards to the OP: I hope you find your answer.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 09, 2010, 07:21:48 PM
Dainty,
Perfectly put. 

One thing I'd like to add is that you may not have time to pray for guidance and I find that we tend to react to what our training has prepared us for.  The question is brought up so as to have a plan that is inline with God's Word for when the occasion presents itself.

If Christians waited for spiritual guidance before every critical decision there would be alot of dead people from inaction.  We don't need to pray to God to know that taking the life of a punk pointing a gun at your daughter is the right thing to do if it's the only choice given.

We should be able to have a plan based on God's Word for the OP scenario also based on God's Word. 

When I read (and this is not directed at you) "I will have to wait and see what God wants me to do" I wonder why hard decisions always seem to become a spiritual matter with no clear cut answers?

Hasn't God provided an answer to all the questions in his Word?  Is there really anything new under the sun?  Then why can't we expect to find an answer in God's Word instead of hoping we will receive divine intervention when we need it?

We read that "no work = no eat" in the Bible, do we tell ourselves we will just wait to see what God has us do when we have no job and are hungry?  No, we get a job as the Bible tells us to.

I mean it sounds all spiritual to think we can wait for a guiding hand but common sense is not necessarily a contradiction to God's Word.

Just my $0.02 right or wrong
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Dainty on December 09, 2010, 07:42:37 PM
One thing I'd like to add is that you may not have time to pray for guidance and I find that we tend to react to what our training has prepared us for.

I agree. We do not always have time to ask for guidance. I take the approach of training for both, not for one or the other, so that I will be equally prepared based on my discernment of an instantaneous situation.

Edited to add: Another point is that I do not believe God delays in guiding us when we need guidance that second, as I've experienced many times. Sweetheart's Mom put it well in the beginning of this thread:
I truly believe that if I am ever in that postion, I will hear God and know what to do.


When I read (and this is not directed at you) "I will have to wait and see what God wants me to do" I wonder why hard decisions always seem to become a spiritual matter with no clear cut answers?

Hasn't God provided an answer to all the questions in his Word?  Is there really anything new under the sun?  Then why can't we expect to find an answer in God's Word instead of hoping we will receive divine intervention when we need it?

I believe you may misunderstand me. I am not saying God's Word doesn't have the answer, I'm saying that it contains both answers. I cannot choose one side without taking a pair of scissors to my Bible and cutting out the verses that support the other. Debating the matter in my head is like watching a tennis match between two equal players. The ball just goes back and forth and back and forth as there are verses with a ready response to each rebuttal. It's kinda entertaining. But I'm still left without a clear "winner".

The Bible is clear-cut on many things; the scenario presented is not one of those things, from what I can tell. And so I accept both answers as having a time and a place, I prepare to do either one, and I trust that God would not let me err as I remain open to His guidance.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 09, 2010, 08:29:41 PM
Dainty,
I don't think I  misunderstand you, I agree that there are both answers to many questions in life contained in the Bible. 

I just see a lot of people not willing to even look at the court let alone watch long enough to realize both sides are equally matched and realize when the time for one side or the other is at hand.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Dainty on December 09, 2010, 08:38:32 PM
Ah, I see.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: hobbs67 on December 09, 2010, 09:40:21 PM
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When I read (and this is not directed at you) "I will have to wait and see what God wants me to do" I wonder why hard decisions always seem to become a spiritual matter with no clear cut answers?

On this point I always think of King Saul and Samuel from the OT, when God tells Saul to do something, i frankly don't recall what exactly as I sit here -- I think it was to make a sacrifice, but Saul was required to wait on Samuel's arrival to do so.  Saul doesn't wait and goes on to do exactly what the Lord asked, but according to his own understanding and since he did not do it in the Lord's time and following the Lord's direction, it was bad in the Lord's eyes.

I may have a clear cut plan based upon Scripture and what Ibelieve the future holds, but often God has not given the prodding and direction yet to truly know where He will lead and that may be in a different direction that I expected.  It certainly will not contradict the Word, but God's ways are so much higher than ours and for me, often I just haven't gotten there yet.
 

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Hasn't God provided an answer to all the questions in his Word?  Is there really anything new under the sun?  Then why can't we expect to find an answer in God's Word instead of hoping we will receive divine intervention when we need it?

Dainty's point is a good one here, two Biblical principals that can be applied in the same situation and waiting on God to choose the way. 

God has given us the ultimate answer, Jesus = Son of God = Eternal life, but he does not tell us today what He will require of us tomorrow or when the SHTF.  Paul praying for his thorn to be taken away is an example, He certainly had the important answer, Jesus but still asked God to heal Him, Paul's preference, only to have God give him a better answer -- His grace is sufficient for us.

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We read that "no work = no eat" in the Bible, do we tell ourselves we will just wait to see what God has us do when we have no job and are hungry?  No, we get a job as the Bible tells us to.

I mean it sounds all spiritual to think we can wait for a guiding hand but common sense is not necessarily a contradiction to God's Word.

Just my $0.02 right or wrong

Oregonshooter, I agree with what you are saying, but don't think the I don't know in the end answer and what you are saying are mutually exclusive. 
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: cerakoter on December 09, 2010, 09:58:10 PM
hobbs67,
Great points.  For me it can come down to this... Have a plan based on God's teaching (know how to make the sacrifice as Saul did) but know when it is not your job to follow the plan and remain open to the Spirit's guidance at all times even after you have put your plan into motion.

Abraham's sacrifice comes to mind also.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: berul on December 10, 2010, 09:53:43 AM
Here is somethin i found from the late Matthew Henry thought was some what fittin, at least as far as the
diligence of duty

    When we are in trouble and want, it is folly for us to stand looking upon one another, that is, to stand desponding and despairing, as if there were no hope, no help,—to stand disputing either which shall have the honour of going first or which shall have the safety of coming last,—to stand deliberating and debating what we shall do, and doing nothing,—to stand dreaming under a spirit of slumber, as if we had nothing to do, and to stand delaying, as if we had time at command. Let it never be said, "We left that to be done to-morrow which we could as well have done to-day."
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: TexasScout on December 11, 2010, 08:11:15 AM
Hey all, first post here.

I like an idea that I saw on Glenn Beck's show the other day.  He suggested that we each have a "charity bucket" for everyone of our family that does not prepare.  Just a five gallon bucket with a lid and in it place some food items, first aid, water, etc and tell them; I have been warning you for a long time about this, now here is what I can offer.  You have shown "Christian Charity" and fulfilled your obligations without putting your family at risk.  You can't feed the world and the only thing Christ asked you to do is what you can.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: Heavy G on December 11, 2010, 08:17:00 AM

I like an idea that I saw on Glenn Beck's show the other day.  He suggested that we each have a "charity bucket" for everyone of our family that does not prepare. 
 

Texas Scout:

Great first post.  Here is a thread on 5-gallon buckets that serve this purpose:  http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=1968.0 (http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=1968.0) 

They would only last a little while, but they'd be something.  I must say that I feel better about my prepping knowing that out at my BOL ("bug out location" for new folks) I have five of these 5-gallon buckets full of food and things like a can opener to give out. 
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: smajda on December 13, 2010, 04:51:36 PM
Here's an issue I struggle with as a Christian.  I spend time and money prepping, build up a food storage, fuel, water, guns & ammo and for what?  

When SHTF I will have 2 choices...
1. Give it to anyone that asks for a handout, eventually depleting my supply and starving my family.
2. Defend it with deadly force, raising moral issues.

What's the proper Christian thing to do given the above two choices.  You can wrangle the question around, but in the end those are the only two choices.  Sure, I will give what I can, but the demand will easily overcome the supply I have.

So can anyone show me Biblical evidence to support either position?

I think the problem here is that you have been presented with a false dichotomy.  We worship a God who will provide and who's will can be done on earth. (We also look forward to the day when his will will be done on earth as it is in heaven, but I digress.)

If there is a third way you can think of then God can do it.

But lets look at choice number one.  If this were truly the case, not giving it away only prolongs the inevitable does it not?  If you are only relying on stored food there is a limit.  If you have a way of bringing in food on top of your provisions, which is more likely the case, I truly believe that you can ask for something in return.

2 Thessalonians 3:10

 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.

Now don't get me wrong, I think there is a point where after you have prepped for your family, you should start prepping for your neighbor. And charity will be required of you.  So what do we do when the charity rations run low?  I personally (I know, easy for me to say now) think we should err on the side of charity and rely on God.  The charity should be used as an evangelism tool as well.  Be a cheerful giver, let yourself be a reflection of Christ.  Let them know how hard you have it but you think that God will provide.  Invite them into your home.  And let the situation be about God.  (this is very important for choice number two.)  Perhaps you will win a brother to christ?

At the same time I think there is a point where you can say, I am sorry I do not have anything to share. You must decide when that is. When God leads you to that place.  

The first few generations of christians went into plague infested cities to pray for people and help heal them.  Not all of them made it back out.  This SHTF scenario like every other situation in life should be used in any way to glorify God.

Now option number two.  Somebody mentioned selfless acts.  Would you really kill somebody over the last morsel of food between your family or them? Is that really worth killing somebody for?  I again do not believe in the only two choices option in any situation and that God will always provide another way.  Why would you need to use deadly force? What about incapacitating force?
Our most important weapon as Christians is the name of Jesus the Christ.  You can (and I know people who have) rebuke somebody in the name of Jesus, disarming them.  

You said that its a moral issue to use this deadly force and I agree. But then I got a little confused with this statement.

Many want to claim that God would never justify a war like he did in Israelis day and take "love thy enemy" to an extreme that is in direct contradiction with the OT and the "ensamples" as Paul said it was to us.

Like I said in the OP... I'm not talking about not having charity, that is a core tenement to the faith.  I'm talking about being a "lamb led to the slaughter" situation.


Why do you think its a possible moral issue?

I think it is, because of what you talked about in this last quote.  Jesus's command to love your enemies.  This is taught in what I (and many others) believe is the foundational teaching in Jesus's ministry, the sermon on the mount (Matt 5-7.) I wanted to just repost the love your enemies section but then I kept reading before and after and all of it is so good and pertains so much to your question.  Reread your question and then read the sermon on the mount then read the question again.  I think the answer is there, it is quite obvious, and it is quite contradictory to almost all of the other answers on the thread.
 
If this person that you think you might have to use deadly force on is your enemy, then you are commanded to love them.
If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life...
then surely the most unloving thing you can do to anybody (including your enemy) is seal somebodies fate to perish.

So to sum up the answer to the second part of your original post.  I do not believe that option two is an option for the christian.  Keep them scared away in the first place by hanging hunting trophies around.  Incapacitate them. by spiritual means (rebuking in Jesus's name) or by non-lethal force.  This might sound hypocritical but I really don't think that it is, but I wouldn't see a problem with knocking them out cold so that they could get the help they need later.  

But for the love of God do not send them to hell.  Thats not our calling as Christians, the devil doesn't need any help, and that judgement is reserved for God and God alone.

If your conversation with the man has been a spiritual one, a Christ centered one, and lord forbid they overcome your family, you will die as martyrs.  The best thing you can do to prep is to be prepared to stand before his throne.

Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: idelphic on December 13, 2010, 06:16:57 PM
Texas Scout:

Great first post.  Here is a thread on 5-gallon buckets that serve this purpose:  http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=1968.0 (http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=1968.0) 

They would only last a little while, but they'd be something.  I must say that I feel better about my prepping knowing that out at my BOL ("bug out location" for new folks) I have five of these 5-gallon buckets full of food and things like a can opener to give out. 
Thank for the post link Heavy G - One thing I might add is a few 8oz and 16oz bottles of water...  not many,.. just a few...
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: WV_Hampshire on December 19, 2010, 09:51:57 AM
Well, I believe that as husbands and fathers we are called to take care of our family first, we do this by prepping ourselves and family.   Lets remember the story of Noah.  Noah prepared himself and his family and no one else listened to him.  He was able to protect his family through his preparations.  He didn't share his boat with the unprepared.

Now, if you have surplus or leftovers, then you can share them if you want, but I think in a true SHTF senario we will want all the supplies we have for our families.

Also, the 10 commandments doesn't forbid killing, it forbids murder.  Big difference between killing and murdering.  If you are a soldier in combat you kill the enemy.  If an intruder comes into your home you will want to shoot and kill him.  The bible doesn't forbid these types of killing or killing in general.  Murder is much, much different than just killing.  The hebrew word is related to murder not killing.

So if your unprepared neighbors or intruders try and take your preps in a SHTF scenario, then you have the right to defend yourself and your family.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: boboroshi on December 19, 2010, 02:12:51 PM
James Wesley Rawles (at SurvivalBlog) has posted on this topic a lot. Here's one example with extensive Biblical references:

http://www.survivalblog.com/2008/11/letter_re_food_storage_versus.html (http://www.survivalblog.com/2008/11/letter_re_food_storage_versus.html)

From my perspective, God has provided me with the knowledge and awareness of the problem and the ability to prepare for it.

It's similar to the story told of a person on the roof with the waters rising and a raft, a boat and a helicopter all come to rescue the person and the person refuses saying "God will rescue me!" and upon perishing goes to heaven and asks God "Why didn't you rescue me?" and he replied "I sent a raft, a boat and a helicopter. What more did you want?"

I think it's important for us to remember that it's not always some miraculous event that shows God's hand in the world, but the mundane.
Title: Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
Post by: ChEng on December 30, 2010, 08:56:04 PM
Wow, great thread!  Lots of thought-fodder here.  Special thanks to Dainty for your well-expressed thoughts.

I had not really given this a whole lot of thought - we are commanded to prepare, etc.  That has been enough, until now, I guess :-\

On the "give it away"/"defend the homestead" issue, I have to agree with Dainty (as well as others); I also see multiple answers in the Bible and must conclude that God wants me to consider both options and that He will guide me when the time comes.  Also, like Dainty, I do not think that God will hesitate to the point of me being in trouble from waiting.

On the charity question (which, I understand was not a part of the OT, but charity is a serious part of Christianity, and so...):

Do you grow your own food?  Didn't God command farmers NOT to reap the edges of their field for this very purpose?  The Bible DOES talk about this... something about providing for aliens (wanderers) and widows... it's in the old testament, and I'm not Christian, but I'm SURE it's there.

Sister Wolf, very interesting thought here.  One thing about this, that Mrs. ChEng and I considered as we discussed this thread: this commandment was given to God's people in time of peace and plenty.  We believe that the 10% gleanings (in our case, it would be of both storage and harvest) is not proper for times of disaster.  We are trying to have quite a bit more than we need in storage, just so that we can give MORE than that 10%.  In other words, God wants the 10% for peacetime, but He wants more from us when times are bad (and even if they aren't :P) - We will store up what we can, and allow God to guide us on how best to distribute His part of our stores and harvest, and then again, trust Him to replenish (or stretch, a la the miracles of the loaves and fishes) those assets.