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Survivalism & Self Sufficiency Topics => Emergency Preparations => Topic started by: 2paranoid on September 15, 2012, 08:43:02 AM

Title: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: 2paranoid on September 15, 2012, 08:43:02 AM
One scenario I'm prepping for is the possibility that the coming economic collapse will lead to roving bands of thugs looking for resources. Our 10 acre homestead is pretty self-sufficient and well-stocked, meaning we'll eventually be a target when the food runs out in the metro area and the gangs start moving out into the countryside. I'll spare the details, but we're in a pretty good tactical position here, at least according to the worksheets in Joe Nobody's book - high ground, not visible from the road, surrounded by natural barriers, etc. But eventually, they'll find us, and we need to be ready.

My choice is to stand and fight, or retreat and lay low while they ransack. Given the fact that I have three kids and a wife to look after, my best bet may be to retreat. Not that we are untrained - my wife and two of the kids are Appleseed Riflemen, as am I, and we could theoretically control everything for 400 yards in any direction with four rifles. But punching holes in paper is a much different thing that putting your sights on a human, and I'm not sure any of us could do that. Plus, my fear is that the gangs will be better organized and trained by the time they get here, the riff-raff having been weeded out in a brutal process of artificial selection. We may be outnumbered and outclassed.

I know the solution is community and cross-training, but time is running out. I need a detailed plan for bugging out, but not too far out. I've got 10 acres of terrain to play with, with many natural places to hide out, pre-stage supplies, observe the house, camp out, etc. My idea is that I'll have some warning and have already cleared long-term food preps, weapons and ammo, gear, etc., out of the house and dispersed it in the woods. On "go day," we move out to the woods and keep the house under surveillance until the threat has passed, and hopefully not a single shot is fired. Lather, rinse, repeat.

So, my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? I'm having no luck searching for "rally point" - I get links to some stupid video games. Is there an Army manual available that I can download that covers the principles I need to understand to make sure my family survives an attack such as I describe?

2p
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on September 15, 2012, 09:20:51 AM
I too am in a similar situation, having a young family to look out for.  Our plan is not try and make our rural property work for us, because we know they will eventually come and nothing can stop it.  Knowing they will come, I don't want to take any chances with my families lives, nor do I want to waste resources (time, energy, money) that can be applied elsewhere. . . .  Our plan is to bug in as long as we safely can, and head for the remote high country when it gets dicey.  I'm a hunter that hates to run in to people when I'm hunting, more than I hate not filling my tag, so I know a lot of great places.

When to leave is the tough part, but I buy in to the thought that an economical collapse won't happen over night (not even close).  There will be a lot of markers, starting in the biggest cities, that we will be watching for.   
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: 2paranoid on September 15, 2012, 09:27:21 AM
Our long-term survival is tied to this homestead - we can produce much of what we need, and have the community to trade for what we can't. We don't have the resources for a total bug-out retreat, and I don't believe that's a good long term solution anyway - if you don't live there, there's no community, and you'll be considered an outsider by the locals, deed or no deed.

So we're tied to this place, and we'll defend it to the death, because we have no choice. But my goal is to avoid the deaths in the short term, and if that means occasionally bugging out to let the latest scum look around, so be it. That's what I'm prepping for.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Greekman on September 15, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
Indeed taking yuo down is easy for a gang. They have only shoot a single bullet at yuor hoem every 5 minutes alla fay and night long. how long can you alst?
And i have never heard of a siege -through the ages- that went well for the defendee....

So spliting and regrouping seems to be the proper action to take.
How about a simple cabin made by the leftover wood by blank making, just for afew days worth of shelter that is.

My reservations is that your place may nto only be targeted once, and there may be several gangs that operate in the area. So you may find the need to live more time at your retreat location than home.
edit 1: Have you thought of installing a surveilance system (alarm & camera) at the ebgining of the road that ends in your property?

Also what I noticed in your 1st post is that your family may shoot well but do yuo knwo anything about small unit tactics?
until someone withreal expereince steps up in this topic I would suggest have a look at military manual that can be found on-line.

edit 2: You may browse in GlobalSecurity.org. It seems it ahs the most extended collection of..
also ahve a look at these if they are of use
B-GL-392-008 - Ambush & Counter-Ambush
FM 7-8 - Infantry Rifle Platoon & Squad
FM 17-98 - Scout Platoon
MCWP 3-11.3 - Scouting & Patroling
MCWP 3-11.2 - Marine Rifle Squad

Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on September 15, 2012, 09:55:27 AM
Our long-term survival is tied to this homestead - we can produce much of what we need, and have the community to trade for what we can't. We don't have the resources for a total bug-out retreat, and I don't believe that's a good long term solution anyway - if you don't live there, there's no community, and you'll be considered an outsider by the locals, deed or no deed.

So we're tied to this place, and we'll defend it to the death, because we have no choice. But my goal is to avoid the deaths in the short term, and if that means occasionally bugging out to let the latest scum look around, so be it. That's what I'm prepping for.

We've got it pretty good out here in the west.  There are miles and miles of secluded and resource thick land that one can hide in for a very long time (forever if you wanted to) if you have the know-how.  No "locals" to deal with and no deeds to worry about (lots of public land).  Other than my closest friends and family, I plan to get as far way from people as I can. 

What kind of community do you have, that you think it can stop a band of killers?  To quote you "my fear is that the gangs will be better organized and trained by the time they get here".  So will that community be able to survive repeated attacks.  And once they take all that you have, what then?  What will you do if they decide to stay? . . .  It sounds like you're going to have to plan for a fight, and that's the opposite of my plan (given that I have young children).
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: hedgewitch on September 16, 2012, 05:44:11 AM
i suggest the book East of Eden, it has a similar plan, good luck
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: 2paranoid on September 16, 2012, 06:48:08 AM
@Greekman: good call on the cameras and electronic surveillance gear. I have an 8 channel DVR system and a good quality motion sensor on the driveway, which forms the backbone of my EWS system. I have the front of the property (most likely approach) fenced, and have materials pre-staged to make that a more formidable barrier. I also have a plan for putting a gate across the driveway, to keep traffic on the driveway controlled. But my big advantage is that I'm the last of three houses on our shared driveway,  so I should have warning from the other two before I get hit.

Re: small unit tactics- not yet. The kids aren't psychologically ready for that, and I have no experience to pass on to them. But those field manual references will sure help- just what I was looking for.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: SheepdogSurvival on September 16, 2012, 01:06:33 PM
Hear are a few thoughts on the subject.

First off you need more people at your location to achieve the kinda of security that your scenario demands period, preferably people with professional MIL/LE training. Secondly I think we should all reassess the likelihood or non-likihood of this scenario happening. If the situation has degraded to this point and you don't have some kind of outside support you and your family's survival rate quickly drops to almost nil. That said I'm going to attempt to offer some suggestions on how to help deal with the specific scenario you asked about and try to connect them back to reality now as well as for use in more likely scenarios too.

Rally Points. It's a good idea to setup a localized rally point that you and your family can use in the event that your home becomes unavailable due to whatever. Here is a incomplete list of circumstances were a rally point would come in handy.
-Fire
-Flooding
-A home invader while you are away so your kids/wife could flee and wait for you etc (I know they can shoot but what if they are outside in the garden or otherwise away from a weapon).
-A quantified, specific large scale threat such as an organized gang attack.

Bugging out.  For the gang attack scenario or any large scale violent threat you need to understand that the situation has crossed a debarkation line past what you and your family are capable of handling. You said that their are two other house holds before you, if the situation gets that dire you are need to coordinate with your neighbors once it does so that all of the localized households can meet at the rally point and formulate a defense from a nearby position or counter attack. You MUST coordinate with your neighbors, or local town/community or bring in your own extra security.
If you bugout you need to have someplace to go that has other resources and preferably people you can count on. Taking your family into the wilderness is not a very good option, granted it's better than staying and getting killed though depending on the time of year/weather etc you or your family could just as easily die from exposure/sickness/starvation. Get involved with your community today and get to know your neighbors and the people in your area, the people in the two houses on the way to your place are not a buffer, they are your life line.

You seem to have most of your EWS and security setup pretty well, the stuff Joe Nobody discusses in his books could be pretty helpful in this regard as well. I can't really offer any advice/opinions since I don't know your situation. If you really see the scenario that you painted playing out you could do the following to help prepare:
-Like I said, community, community, community.....
-Learn to be a good negotiator and barter with others, your network and social skills are worth more than a warehouse full of preps in your scenario.
-Have extra food, lots of extra food. Their are plenty of MIL/LEO trained guys like me out there who may not have a suitable place to go or the space/ability to store an adequate amount of food. Right now it would cost you a min of $500/day to hire someone to do high risk security work, but if food was scarce I would easily accept a small room (even in a barn) and a daily food ration. How do you know if you can trust outside security? Build community, build your network.
-Get enough guns and ammo to arm your neighbors, again have enough food and medicine to keep them alive and on your side too.
-Have a secondary cache of supplies, weapons, bugout/camping gear somewhere hidden and hidden from your house you could access so you could either retreat to some place else with those supplies or mount a counter attack(bring friends if possible). This also creates redundancy in the event that your house burns down or is taken out by a tornado etc.. this way you don't loss all your precious preps.
-Create hidden spaces within your house, this will help keep your supplies away from burglars and slow down how fast your home is looted if anyone is already inside. This could enable you to retreat from your home if a gang is inbound and may enable some of your stuff in the house to remain safe. 

-Develop a sensible retreat plan that involved a rapid retreat in the hills away from danger as soon as the bad guys show up and leave a full liquor cabinet so the bad guys will get nice and drunk. Then leave your family in a temporary bivouac location to hide out. Meetup with some friends and form a QRF (quick reaction force). Complete a hasty mission plan with the rest of your QRF. Attack your house with your QRF team around 330am. Things that you may want to consider are:
*Having maps and photos of your house pre-staged at your retreat location.
*Have firearms as well as handheld weapons(axes/tomahawks, machetes, bayonets etc)  pre-staged since you probably would want to kill as many of the gang members as possible with stealth.
*Have breaching tools (sledge hammer and crowbar) pre-staged.
*Have some one on your QFR team that is familiar with this sort of operation.

Couple of more things, like nelson said it's not likely to happen overnight. And since you don't know what the best course of action will be in a largely unknown situation you should concentrate on providing yourself with as many tools as you can to deal with whatever comes up the biggest one being your network and community. And secondary creating some redundancy in where you store your preps and can retreat to. If the situation develops then just keep your planning process ahead of the situation. It wont be hard to convince your neighbors and community to take more aggressive security measures if the shit is hitting the fan in such a big way. Don't waste your time planning unrealistic situations. How does my family and I survive an organized highly disciplined attack from a sizable force without outside help? is akin to how to I defend myself from a helicopter attack with small arms....it aint going to happen so don't waste time on it.

Also listen to Jack's interview with Selco for some additional information on this topic.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on September 16, 2012, 02:09:37 PM
@ SheepdogSurvival

Very good advice, well done.  The only thing I would disagree on is your point about retreating to the wilderness.  With ample training and preparation, I feel a family could do very well.  And it may take a lot less time and resources to prepare for, while lending itself very well in a non combative scenario.  That said, I still stand on my suggestion, in the event that you can not count on the "community, community, community" required to pull off what you suggest. . . .  For me, my family and friends are just too sacred to count on other civilians to complete such a difficult task as you suggest.  Any wrong move from any individual would most certainly create loss of life. 

I will add, that once I know my family is safe and can take care of themselves, I will be the first one to offer my help to control an invading hoard and/or such.  As a person very comfortable in the woods, I suppose my efforts would be best suited as a militia member fighting in rural areas.  Large cities scare me even in so-called peace time. 
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: SheepdogSurvival on September 16, 2012, 05:59:12 PM
@ SheepdogSurvival

Very good advice, well done.  The only thing I would disagree on is your point about retreating to the wilderness.  With ample training and preparation, I feel a family could do very well.  And it may take a lot less time and resources to prepare for, while lending itself very well in a non combative scenario.  That said, I still stand on my suggestion, in the event that you can not count on the "community, community, community" required to pull off what you suggest. . . .  For me, my family and friends are just too sacred to count on other civilians to complete such a difficult task as you suggest.  Any wrong move from any individual would most certainly create loss of life. 

I will add, that once I know my family is safe and can take care of themselves, I will be the first one to offer my help to control an invading hoard and/or such.  As a person very comfortable in the woods, I suppose my efforts would be best suited as a militia member fighting in rural areas.  Large cities scare me even in so-called peace time.

Thanks!

My comments are general in nature pertaining to a very wide range of circumstances. Anyways I've run into a lot of people who think they are great wilderness survivalists who aren't  and I've seen some pretty competent woodsmen go down from injury or infection etc.. The wilderness can be very unforgiving as I'm sure you know. Although it would be possible to head for the hills for a season in some circumstances I still stand by my opinion that it is generally a bad idea for most people. But part of why I feel that way is because there are very few people in the lower 48 even have access to any wilderness areas remote enough to support the idea of hiding out away from gangs/raiders. Furthermore I feel it will be essential to have ~90% of your food preposition-ed or brought in with you since I feel poaching etc will have decimated the game populations etc. Also I encourage anyone considering a long-ish wilderness survival to have a good size stash of antibiotics if you have not already done so.

Basically even though we have a little different opinion that's all it is...an opinion because I think we'd both agree that no matter what choice we make if things ever get that bad all of us will have to fight tooth and nail for our very survival only difference will be what our foe will be.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on September 16, 2012, 06:38:10 PM
there are very few people in the lower 48 even have access to any wilderness areas remote enough to support the idea of hiding out away from gangs/raiders.

Ever been out west?  There are lots of places that even a local wouldn't go.  In all reality, I believe it wouldn't take getting much off the beaten path.  I believe the gangs/raiders will on the most part stick to the main highways. . . .  It's funny.  I once invited a guy from Vermont to elk hunt with us.  He was amazed at how much dense land we have that has such limited access.  He also expected that most of our tree's were all logged off and/or burned in wild fires.  This was based on the local news footage. . .  I've horse packed all over Oregon and Northern California for weeks at a time, and never stepped foot on the same trail twice (or crossed a road).

It will be common thinking like he had, and yours, that will make our hills a great place to hide out.

Furthermore I feel it will be essential to have ~90% of your food preposition-ed or brought in with you since I feel poaching etc will have decimated the game populations etc.

I have the same ability as you to stock food and supplies at a BOL.  Personally, I also have the ability (and so could anyone) to transport supplies from my BIL to my BOL via my stock trailer and horse trailer when it appears the time is right.  As for the wildlife being decimated and leaving me with no food; the gangs/raiders will have decimated the people that bugged-in before that happens.

Also I encourage anyone considering a long-ish wilderness survival to have a good size stash of antibiotics if you have not already done so.

By the time things have gotten to the point where gangs/raiders are a problem, and I've made a decision to bug-out, everyone will have the need of their antibiotic stashes.  I don't see my conditions any different than yours.  Mine may be less so, given that I won't be getting shot up as much and dealing with the extreme damage of a gun shot wound.

Basically even though we have a little different opinion that's all it is...an opinion because I think we'd both agree that no matter what choice we make if things ever get that bad all of us will have to fight tooth and nail for our very survival only difference will be what our foe will be.

So true.  I'll only add that yours is a little less predictable.


It's obvious we are both passionate about the decisions we THINK we will make.  Based on the differences of experience, we should agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: The Professor on September 16, 2012, 09:52:36 PM

Very good advice, well done.  The only thing I would disagree on is your point about retreating to the wilderness.  With ample training and preparation, I feel a family could do very well.  And it may take a lot less time and resources to prepare for, while lending itself very well in a non combative scenario. 


While I don't presume to speak for the man, I might suggest that Les Stroud would argue that point.

Watch a couple of seasons of Survivorman.  Very few times  have I seen him not have problems with food procurement.

Now, in your situation, that can be remedied by the placement of various caches.  But to just walk into the wilderness and expect to live there?  Hell, not even the legendary mountain man went into the mountains without LOTS of food.

Try it for a week and then see what your results are.  You might want to start considering where to bury those 55-gallon drums.

The Professor
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on September 16, 2012, 10:29:57 PM
While I don't presume to speak for the man, I might suggest that Les Stroud would argue that point.

Watch a couple of seasons of Survivorman.  Very few times  have I seen him not have problems with food procurement.

Now, in your situation, that can be remedied by the placement of various caches.  But to just walk into the wilderness and expect to live there?  Hell, not even the legendary mountain man went into the mountains without LOTS of food.

Try it for a week and then see what your results are.  You might want to start considering where to bury those 55-gallon drums.

I can understand this coming from a person without experience, but anybody willing to learn could have ample experience.  I have tried it for a week, much more than a week in fact.  I spend my summers camping and my fall & winters hunting in the very locations I will bug-out to.  I've lived in the country all my life and spent much of that in the woods from a very young age.  There are pockets miles from the nearest road that have beautiful fields of grass, year long water and plenty of cover to build a cabin in (I might even have one built ;D).  There are also many cabins left from the days of mining that are still habitable that you can get to with a 4x4.

Are you really using the "legendary mountain man " Les Stroud as an example, really?  Guys like him are paid celebreties made to entertain urban folk, who most certainly lives in the city as well (just a guess).  If you're going to use a t.v. reference, at least use something like the show Mountain Men.

I'm not sure why some people have such a guard when it comes to this thought.  Our pioneers did it, some of which coming from the city.  Yes, many didn't make it, but more did.  This is how the west was won.

I love this discussion, keep them coming if you like.

@ 2paranoid . . . .  I hope you're getting some good reference from all this, I don't mean to be getting off subject if that's what it is.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Greekman on September 16, 2012, 11:25:02 PM
@Greekman: good call on the cameras and electronic surveillance gear. I have an 8 channel DVR system and a good quality motion sensor on the driveway, which forms the backbone of my EWS system. I have the front of the property (most likely approach) fenced, and have materials pre-staged to make that a more formidable barrier. I also have a plan for putting a gate across the driveway, to keep traffic on the driveway controlled. But my big advantage is that I'm the last of three houses on our shared driveway,  so I should have warning from the other two before I get hit.

Re: small unit tactics- not yet. The kids aren't psychologically ready for that, and I have no experience to pass on to them. But those field manual references will sure help- just what I was looking for.

It is a reference point. A way to learn to ask the proper questions, not learn the "art"

Regarding surveilance, what i meant was to wire yuor early waring way further (to get an appreciable warning). In effect in the bedn oen turn on the shared driveway (maybe camera in the turn and a buzzer after the house closer to you)

Nelson and sheeepdog gave very good advice.....

BTW what does this kind of questions always bring back "Lights Out" to me?
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on September 17, 2012, 09:00:37 AM
My two cents is that a good community with good communications can do very well at deterring bad guys.  If any incursion into the perimeter of homes is met with an overwhelming response, the losses will quickly exceed the potential gain and greener pastures will be sought.  It wouldn't take much for a relatively small community to set themselves up with Ham, CB or even FRS radios so every home had a way of alerting others and a system of rallying an organized response.  This is particularly true for a community where there's a very limited number of ways in and out where chokepoints on the road can be monitored or controlled. 

Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on September 17, 2012, 10:17:53 AM
I lived in the bush in a cabin for years... not everyone belongs out there. Especially the ones who have the romance of living in the wilderness. Those are the ones who usually die first. You have to watch every step, think out 2 moves ahead.. even for moving hay for animals at -40F. One slip and break a leg and you could write yourself off. Under normal circumstances, the wilderness weeds people out one way or another. Most bug out back 'home'.

Can it be done? Yes. It will be tough. But even the best most ultimate guru of the wilderness.. with one little mistake s/he will be dead. As much training/experience as I have had for a couple decades, it would be my last resort to head to the bush/forest/mountains, especially with my 2 yr old daughter.

nelson is right. Where we live we have large amounts of wilderness we could melt into and never see another person for a very very long time. An hours walk for me from my house could get me there. Say I had to get up into that area today, it is already below freezing at night some nights. Soon it will be every day. The snow lasted until May this year. Most people would get hypothermia before they probably even got their shelter built, unless they already had one made in advance.

10 acres is not that much. If someone was looking for you, you would probably be ferreted out fairly quickly.

What happened during/after Katrina? Inner cities looted, did the countryside get it then or later as people expanded outward? How far out is your 10 acres?

I agree on community. The problem is most of our like minded community are not next door neighbors.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on September 17, 2012, 08:27:02 PM
My two cents is that a good community with good communications can do very well at deterring bad guys.  If any incursion into the perimeter of homes is met with an overwhelming response, the losses will quickly exceed the potential gain and greener pastures will be sought.  It wouldn't take much for a relatively small community to set themselves up with Ham, CB or even FRS radios so every home had a way of alerting others and a system of rallying an organized response.  This is particularly true for a community where there's a very limited number of ways in and out where chokepoints on the road can be monitored or controlled.

I whole heartedly agree with this, but how hard is it to get your neighbors signed on for a task that ultimately would require them training, enough training so that they could effectively communicate and kill?  I would think this would be pretty easy once the SHTF and these gangs of killers are busting down doors, but then it's too late.  And really, how many neighbors do you have (a group of say 20?) and could they hold off a gang of 50 crazy killers that already have experience with killing towns people such as yours and have nothing to lose?

Yes it can be done . . .  I'm just saying there are other options that don't require dependency on a large group and/or gun fire.  Especially if you are in an area with mild climate, which I'm lucky enough to live in.  This is something you obviously make plans and train for, just like you are doing now in your other preps.

My predictions are that these gangs (being the worst case scenario that probably won't happen) will stick to the main highways, attacking towns and homes close by.  I believe they will not be heading up logging roads and such looking for single camps to rob. 

As Cedar said . . . . 

I agree on community. The problem is most of our like minded community are not next door neighbors.

If you have a home that is stand alone and/or a community that exists such as endurance mentions, then you have a good chance and I too would stick it out.  If it's close to a main highway or city . . .  Head for the hills.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on September 17, 2012, 08:32:51 PM
My predictions are that these gangs (being the worst case scenario that probably won't happen) will stick to the main highways, attacking towns and homes close by.  I believe they will not be heading up logging roads and such looking for single camps to rob. 

People tend to be lazy and it is hard work getting up out hills and mountains.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on September 17, 2012, 08:42:00 PM
People tend to be lazy and it is hard work getting up out hills and mountains.

IF (big if) it comes to this, it will be like a profession to them.  They will hone their skills, just like we will, and work toward the highest return on investment.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on September 17, 2012, 09:01:06 PM
I still think that will be the few and not the majority. But yes.. there will be enough of them.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: sdcharger on September 18, 2012, 01:14:17 AM
You need to adopt some Marines.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: The Resident Misanthrope on January 03, 2013, 10:21:11 PM
You need to adopt some Marines.
You mean some Soldiers.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: flippydidit on January 03, 2013, 11:15:07 PM
Depending on how far you wanted to take the "bug in" at all costs method, you may want to consider the following:

If these gangs of ruthless killers have made it to your place in the country, they will likely have developed their tactics based on "soft targets" (townsfolk, elderly, etc).  Theoretically, if your group is not a "soft target", their advantage is lost (almost completely).  Here are some thoughts to get you thinking along planning for this possibility (remote possibility).  This is based on the OP's information (10 acres, etc).

Your home (largest structure) will likely be the bullseye for their assault.  Let them have it.  Pull back to a defensive perimeter that YOU define.  Now THEY are in a siege predicament.  Maybe have a gas line that runs to your house.  Maybe that line is set up with being able to pump chlorine gas into the home.  Do you have a pool?  Just a thought.  You could initiate the pump at "O'Dark Thirty" (3:30 AM) as previously mentioned.  Make sure they're snoozing from all that booze you left them.

If you aren't intent on killing every last one of them, give them an incentive to leave your home.  Don't wait for them to drink and pass out.  Immediately hit them with your "It's in your best interest to get out of my house plan".  You know the exits.  Cover them with gunfire.  Although with proper planning, shots may not even need to be fired.  It really comes down to how you can affect them psychologically.  Or at least, that's a preferred option.  There are a myriad of choices that you can develop to plan for these contingencies.  Put yourself in their position.  Think it through with options/choices that YOU as the defender give them.

You really should develop a network of people who will be at your location and work with them.  Pulling security 24/7 with one family is not going to work.  I also recommend the advice given on seeking out prior or active military members.  You should give preference to those in combat arms branches, that have combat experience, but don't write off any of them if they do not.

My advice is for entertainment purposes only.  Do not do anything illegal.  Especially do not install a minefield or build sentry guns/set guns.   ;)

When all else fails, your lives are more important than "stuff".  Get out if it's that bad.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: sdcharger on January 04, 2013, 09:07:35 AM
You mean some Soldiers.

No offense to any other types of soldiers but I was specifically referring to adopting some Marines.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: livinitup0 on January 04, 2013, 09:20:34 AM
in this kind of situation I would not want to be in a rural area.... id suggest looking at some of the REAL accounts from people during the argentinian collapse. The countryside was far more dangerous simply because theres a lack of manpower to band together.

For me, i'll stick to the citry for a while unless im nearly positive the country is going to be safer since this has shown (in situations that have actually happened) to be the best idea.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on January 11, 2013, 11:57:27 PM
Google FM 101-5-1 operational terms and graphics. 

Get an aerial shot of your land, and do what the manual suggests. 

The term OAKOC is covered in the manual.  If you want piece of mind, look at your own land like an attacker would.  At what point on the ground will they discover your property?  This point is called an inter-visibility line.  It's the point they actually see your house, and possibly the most critical.

Lets say I'm a biker looter wanting to eject you from the house.  I don't care either way if your in the house or not, I'm coming cause I'm hungry.  I've already took some hits and lost some of my crew, and have gotten smarter about looting rural homes.  I found that bum rushing a rural house causes too many casualities, unlike an urban house, where we just rush right in.  So I'm going to take my time, not too much time cause my bros are hungry too.  I'm going to stop there.

Take about a month and read the manual, and good luck! 

The best time to defeat an attacker is to make sure he never has the chance to attack in the first place, or your not around when you know they see you.  Slugging it out is the least preferred option as any loss of a family member based on some dreamed up Rambo scenario would devastate the average person psychologically.

Squat and hold if you know an attack is imminent is insane with a family.  The trick then is to set out detection devices, rehearse evac plan, have at least 4 caches in each cardinal direction at least 600 meters away (and is out of sight and earshot of your house), and disperse.  Have a rally point if everyone gets separated that is near water and off a secondary road. 

Thermal camera with marine deep cycle battery solar panel at the IV line, a wireless motion detector with the camera, and plan the evac. 

It's really too much to even discuss, as the likely hood of this happening seems so slim. 
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Wildthang on January 17, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Well I live in a rural area that is pretty wide open, and it is easy to see what's coming. Plus everybody around me are farmers and gun enthusiasts. When the weather is warm, it sounds like  a war has broke loose because everybody is out shooting targets. I am in the middle of a 5 mile radius of farmers with guns. They are all good honest people and i am not worried about them.
I could be wrong, but if a gang of robbers and looters come to my neck of the woods, they are going to get in a heck of a mess knowing all of the people that live around me.
I am thinking that if we all ban together and guard our perimeters, and work together, it would be a real challenge for the gangs to survive this area. I suppose they may finally wear us down, but beleive me, it would take them a while to do that!
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: livinitup0 on January 17, 2013, 02:09:57 PM
Well I live in a rural area that is pretty wide open, and it is easy to see what's coming. Plus everybody around me are farmers and gun enthusiasts. When the weather is warm, it sounds like  a war has broke loose because everybody is out shooting targets. I am in the middle of a 5 mile radius of farmers with guns. They are all good honest people and i am not worried about them.
I could be wrong, but if a gang of robbers and looters come to my neck of the woods, they are going to get in a heck of a mess knowing all of the people that live around me.
I am thinking that if we all ban together and guard our perimeters, and work together, it would be a real challenge for the gangs to survive this area. I suppose they may finally wear us down, but beleive me, it would take them a while to do that!

just my $0.02 but hopefully they're all prepping too... or otherwise it wont be the roaving gangs... but how much food/water, resources and skills there are to go around that does you guys in.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Wildthang on January 17, 2013, 02:49:47 PM
They all have cattle, gardens, chickens and some have hogs. They are preppers they just don't know it!
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on March 09, 2014, 08:17:32 PM
Quote
Well I live in a rural area that is pretty wide open, and it is easy to see what's coming. Plus everybody around me are farmers and gun enthusiasts. When the weather is warm, it sounds like  a war has broke loose because everybody is out shooting targets. I am in the middle of a 5 mile radius of farmers with guns. They are all good honest people and i am not worried about them.
I could be wrong, but if a gang of robbers and looters come to my neck of the woods, they are going to get in a heck of a mess knowing all of the people that live around me.
I am thinking that if we all ban together and guard our perimeters, and work together, it would be a real challenge for the gangs to survive this area. I suppose they may finally wear us down, but beleive me, it would take them a while to do that!
-Wildthang

Talk about resurrecting the dead, but I saw this and have to give two sense.

Can I come to your place if SHTF?  Just kidding, it sounds like you have a great community. 

I don't have nearly the neighbors you do, but have managed to connect with a few that hunt, fish, can food,etc... You should get them together and have a big barbeque. 
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on March 09, 2014, 08:30:13 PM
Ever been out west?  There are lots of places that even a local wouldn't go. 

*LOL* There are alot of places a self respecting Mountain Goat wouldn't go. And I have seen them hanging off the sides of mountain walls.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TexasGirl on March 09, 2014, 10:24:28 PM
My concern with bugging in until roving hordes of thugs come knocking...  how safe would it be at that point to venture out to bug to another location?

Actually, I feel sorry for anyone that doesn't call before coming over to visit. 

Ummm...  I'll just mention "force multipliers" can improve the odds.

~TG
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on March 09, 2014, 10:41:00 PM
My concern with bugging in until roving hordes of thugs come knocking...  how safe would it be at that point to venture out to bug to another location?
~TG

Depends on where you are. If you were in downtown Portland, Oregon, versus where I lived in the bush in Canada, there is a vast difference. I am middle-of-the-road here, but if I could not bug in where I was in Canada, I was pretty much out of options.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TNVolunteer on March 10, 2014, 07:15:37 AM
I live in the city so my bug-o-meter is rather sensitive, which is to say it is set at "leave early".  Staying here is just not an option in any sort of mildly gnarly scenario.  I learned this lesson the hard way on one of my three for real bug outs (hurricanes).  That being said, the scenario presented in the OP is somewhat different.  Even so  I would still lean towards the bug-out vs stand your ground but in the end, the answer really is "it depends".  When you are talking about family there really isn't such a thing as an acceptable loss which is why I lean towards the bug out.   There has already been some great advice in this thread on the topic, I will only add that having some decent caches in various places has given me some peace of mind should my family ever be on the road. 
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TexasGirl on March 10, 2014, 08:56:57 AM
I live in the city so my bug-o-meter is rather sensitive, which is to say it is set at "leave early".  Staying here is just not an option in any sort of mildly gnarly scenario.  I learned this lesson the hard way on one of my three for real bug outs (hurricanes).  That being said, the scenario presented in the OP is somewhat different.  Even so  I would still lean towards the bug-out vs stand your ground but in the end, the answer really is "it depends".  When you are talking about family there really isn't such a thing as an acceptable loss which is why I lean towards the bug out.   There has already been some great advice in this thread on the topic, I will only add that having some decent caches in various places has given me some peace of mind should my family ever be on the road. 

I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?

~TG
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on March 10, 2014, 10:01:36 AM
I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?

Good point. . .   That's why my hope is to see the indicators and leave early with my stuff.  And/or prestage items at my final bug out location.

.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TNVolunteer on March 10, 2014, 10:05:13 AM
Quote
I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?

I don't suppose you can cover all of them in reality.  I guess it is sort of like building a church for Easter Sunday.  I view it as something akin to adding another feature or special coverage to an insurance policy.

For my situation I need to go 200+ miles in a generally north westerly direction to get to my place and the community there.  I do have three planned and practiced routes but I know the area and journey well enough that I could improvise on farm and county roads to get to one of the caches.  To your point though, I have investigated other routes going back east, and then north or south before turning west.  Those are less likely though.  You end up getting into a situation with adding numerous river crossings, etc, to the journey.   

Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TexasGirl on March 10, 2014, 11:41:19 AM
I don't suppose you can cover all of them in reality.  I guess it is sort of like building a church for Easter Sunday.  I view it as something akin to adding another feature or special coverage to an insurance policy.

For my situation I need to go 200+ miles in a generally north westerly direction to get to my place and the community there.  I do have three planned and practiced routes but I know the area and journey well enough that I could improvise on farm and county roads to get to one of the caches.  To your point though, I have investigated other routes going back east, and then north or south before turning west.  Those are less likely though.  You end up getting into a situation with adding numerous river crossings, etc, to the journey.

There are serious choke points on a long BO route. 

In your case here, river crossings, for example.  How many places can you cross the Brazos?  When speaking with a Coast Guard officer (DHS agency in Houston tasked with shutting in the city) he said they can lock down the Houston metro area within 15-20 minutes.  I was amazed at his remark, asking how?  Basically there are only a few choke points, mainly river crossings around outside of the city.

Like you mentioned before, from the hurricane evac experience, it pays to get out a day ahead of any event.

"Please schedule all emergencies with us at least 36 hours ahead of time."

~TG
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: The Professor on March 10, 2014, 11:44:26 AM
I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?

~TG

No plan can cover every contingency.

The best you can do is prepare. . .and practice.  When you practice, you become competent (hopefully).  This allows you to become more adaptable to the situation because you aren't completely dependent upon what you're carrying.

That's why the items you have in your kit are of great importance and why you should choose them carefully so they give you the maximum advantage in any situation, including the ones you don't foresee.

The three biggest variables in any bug-out scenario are Injury, Hydration, and Food.  These are the "consumables" of which you may not be able to carry enough.  Making sure your kit allows you to address these three needs and having durable equipment to address the other areas means you are less susceptible to failing if your situation evolves.

For clarification: Your shelter, clothing, defensive equipment, etc. are all "durable goods."  They should work under the worst situations.  Since an injury can slow you down, you need to know how to fix it and minimize it's impact upon your travels.  Let's say you choose to slide down an embankment and get a nasty laceration or avulsion on your calf from an unseen piece of metal.  Do you have the proper tools and equipment to fix it?  More importantly, do you have enouqh medical supplies to properly care for it for the duration of your bug-out while minimizing pain and potential infection?

Injuries are, granted, a "What if" scenario.  But Food and Water aren't.  You need them, you carry them and you will consume them.  Make sure your kit includes what's necessary to obtain more of both if your situation is unexpectedly extended.

Yes, we use caches.  But a cache doesn't have to be overly expensive, unless you want to set up a cache that is a "total resupply" cache.  This type of cache includes everything you need in a BOB, including a pack instead of just food and water purification.  If you're going to just do a "consumables" cache, then you can make one up for $100-150 and put one in every direction, assuming you can find an appropriate location.

But even those two distinctions require different placement.  You don't want to do a "Total Resupply" cache more than, say, 16 hours walking distance from your home or office.  Presumably, you need these to initially resupply yourself if the disaster strikes and you are totally unprepared or have to evacuate before you can get to your BOB/GHB.

A "consumables" cache should be placed, IMHO, one day short of the range of supplies in your kit.

But, again, we can't foresee and prepare for every situation.  That's why we must rely upon the greatest strength of the survivalist or prepper: Adaptability.

The Professor
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on March 10, 2014, 11:58:24 AM
I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?
~TG

This is why at my last house, I had 4 BOL's, but I did not own or supply any of them. Depending on what the issue was, I might be heading North for one incident, South for another, high country for a third or West if a volcano blew. All my locations had natural shelter, plenty of good water and 9 months of the year, wild edibles.

I have a good idea on my new spots, but I have not determined those are the "perfect" spots yet. I like to have no less than 3.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Greekman on March 10, 2014, 12:18:46 PM
hmmm Cedar, not even some supplies, like 5 cans of spam and 5 bottles of water?
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on March 10, 2014, 12:35:18 PM
I meant I do not have a cache there in those locations. I have my BOB's. Which in the last 20 years has told me, I have 14 days of food in there. I also have life straws.. and on my side of Oregon, you cannot go 50 yards without hitting a creekline or river. In SAR I taught Summer and Winter survival for 8 years, I taught wild edible foods classes for 5 (?) in my area (I would be lost on the east side of the USA) and I also dog sledded and slept outside at -40F for days at a time for 7 years. I am confident I can build a good shelter to keep us dry and keep us fed for awhile. Comfortable and spider free is another situation  ;)

Will we survive? Who knows, but I know I have a better chance than many. I would rather know I have the tools I need on my back and in my head, than have a cache I am counting on and some guy with a metal detector or truffle hunting finds it and it is gone when I need it. Or in my area, clear cut the area and there is NO landmarks.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on March 10, 2014, 01:00:50 PM
My plans for caching is twice as often as you think you'll need, so if one is gone, you'll likely have the resources to get to the next.

That said, last summer I overestimated my calorie needs and when I hit my day four cache I still had a solid two-plus days of food on board. What I've learned from talking with thru hikers is that you don't need much for calories your first 5-9 days, maybe 2,200-2,600 calories per day, but after that you develop a bottomless stomach where 4,500 calories per day is hardly maintaining you.   When I planned my meals I assumed the 4,500 demand and packed for it, but knowing that, I could have gone much lighter on the food and spared myself three to four pounds or have far fewer caches early on. Thus, in my teotwowki bugout plans, I'll be looking at a 25-30 pound pack for five to six days for a three day's hike to my first cache... Assuming not winter. Winter demands a whole different plan since you're battling both tougher travel and colder temperatures.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on March 10, 2014, 02:38:09 PM
What I've learned from talking with thru hikers is that you don't need much for calories your first 5-9 days, maybe 2,200-2,600 calories per day, but after that you develop a bottomless stomach where 4,500 calories per day is hardly maintaining you.

I find that to be the case even on my hunts.  I often have food left over from my pack the first few days, but the last few days I eat it all and require more to drink.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on March 10, 2014, 03:04:29 PM
I know on days when I am more sedate, I pretty much do not eat all day and I do not get hungry. I know when I was doing SAR or dog sledding I was eating eating 3x the amount of a guy twice my size and losing alot of weight. I think I figured out once that doing SAR, I was requiring 4,200 k/cal a day and dogsledding was a stupid amount of food. So I think I figured in a hard core BO situation on foot, I would require 3,800 to 4,200 k/cal a day, due to the extra weight I was carrying, small child I was carrying and the way the land was.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TNVolunteer on March 10, 2014, 04:31:37 PM
Quote
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TNVolunteer on March 10, 2014, 05:14:03 PM
Quote
There are serious choke points on a long BO route. 

In your case here, river crossings, for example.  How many places can you cross the Brazos?  When speaking with a Coast Guard officer (DHS agency in Houston tasked with shutting in the city) he said they can lock down the Houston metro area within 15-20 minutes.  I was amazed at his remark, asking how?  Basically there are only a few choke points, mainly river crossings around outside of the city.

Like you mentioned before, from the hurricane evac experience, it pays to get out a day ahead of any event.

"Please schedule all emergencies with us at least 36 hours ahead of time."

~TG

Actually, there are a bunch of choke points.  So many in fact that this issue alone makes you want to locate your primary residence on the right side of some of them.  Crossing 610 and BW-8 are the first two.  Brazos is the the third and is somewhat less of a challenge to me than the other two, sort of.  The challenges are different, let's put it that way.   

I have potential bug out routes broken into thirds based on geographic barriers.  For example, with the center of H-town being the hub of the wheel, the middle sector is the cone formed by 290 and I-10.  Within that cone there are three crossings of the Brazos that do not occur on major highways.   There are a good number more to the south and north with the north being favored for this obstacle (less favored for other things).

As to the caches themselves, there a several consumable resupply cashes stashed at various types of locations prior to reaching the Brazos.  There is a full out resupply cache (closet full of good ju-ju) with all sorts of goodies a little more than half way to the destination.

Consumable caches for me look like food, life straw sort of filter, tarp, small first aid supplies, some cord, small knife, stove fuel, a little bit of ammo, and some other oddball small stuff.  Midway resupply cache has a greater quantity of the above, but also clothes, shoes, fuel, etc.

There are all sorts of "ifs" depending on the scenario one creates but at some point those exercises tend to devolve into a real goat rope if you chase them too far.  At least they do for me.  I've caught myself going down all sorts of rabbit trails when the time a resources spent could have been put to better use.



Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TexasGirl on March 10, 2014, 05:53:12 PM
Ahhh, but there is a 4th drivable river crossing inside your cone. 

Think outside the box.

I've looked at that a bit.  Often I'm in Houston and might need to get out to the old home place before heading to NE Texas.  Although I know those counties intimately, and carry a "roadblock pass" valid for the cone, I might choose to cross north of the cone as well.  And certainly to get from the old home place to the new farm would require crossing 5 or 6 rivers plus several large creeks depending on the route.  These are concerns for me, too.

I wouldn't consider I-610 or BW-8 as much of an issue as the new Toll 99 due to the number of crossings.

~TG
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TNVolunteer on March 10, 2014, 07:35:14 PM
Quote
Ahhh, but there is a 4th drivable river crossing inside your cone.
More than one I think.

Quote
"roadblock pass"

Oh do tell!  There are a couple places I have such things but I'm guessing yours and mine are not the same.  No worries if this is not a thing you wish to air in public.  I understand.  In fact, forget I asked.

Quote
I wouldn't consider I-610 or BW-8 as much of an issue as the new Toll 99 due to the number of crossings.

Not sure I follow on this one.  Tell me more please.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on March 10, 2014, 08:37:12 PM
I've wrestled with when to head to the BOL in Michigan.  The problem with where our current plan is every other michigander would probably head North to the UP or thereabouts if things got ugly.  Heck on a normal holiday weekend I-75 is packed along with I-69 heading North.  My thinking lately is to simply buy a small 5 acre piece of land within a half day walking from our current house, and shelve any fantasy we would go to the UP with relatives and live happily ever after. 

The property could be developed as sort of a vacation resort.  Pond, swimming pool, hunting blinds, dual use permaculture berms/security, small cabin made of field stone, etc... have to research this more and see what we could do.

It's just like the conventional thinking about what caliber of gun to own.  Lots of people think owning guns in popular calibers is a good idea, and swear off owning weird sizes.  Heck there's plenty of ammo available now in the weird calibers, and common ones for the local area are harder to get. 

The comparison is for us anyways is to take what everybody else is likely to do if SHTF, and do the opposite.  We recently went on a trip North and had an oh carp moment.  The traffic was stop and go with everybody with boats, trailers, and ATVs.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on March 10, 2014, 10:18:40 PM
This is why at my last house, I had 4 BOL's, but I did not own or supply any of them. Depending on what the issue was, I might be heading North for one incident, South for another, high country for a third or West if a volcano blew. All my locations had natural shelter, plenty of good water and 9 months of the year, wild edibles.

I have a good idea on my new spots, but I have not determined those are the "perfect" spots yet. I like to have no less than 3.

Cedar

You crack me up Cedar.  You're living at your BOL now.  You have no reason to leave.  Just make sure you don't fall those tree's over the road until I get there.  ;D
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on March 10, 2014, 11:11:36 PM
You crack me up Cedar.  You're living at your BOL now.  You have no reason to leave.  Just make sure you don't fall those tree's over the road until I get there.  ;D

There is always a reason. If there was a forest fire we would have to leave and then I would go to YOUR house.  ;D

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: OutWestTX on March 11, 2014, 06:53:58 AM
One scenario I'm prepping for is the possibility that the coming economic collapse will lead to roving bands of thugs looking for resources. .......So, my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? I'm having no luck searching for "rally point" - I get links to some stupid video games. Is there an Army manual available that I can download that covers the principles I need to understand to make sure my family survives an attack such as I describe?


I don't know about manuals, but I think by playing out different scenarios in your mind, you are going in the right direction.  Why not cache food, tools, and weapons in different places in case you need to hide? What if the thugs burn down your house after they ransack it?  Do you have back up shelter?  Could you team up with relatives or another family so you are not alone?  Is every member of your family able to do the chores?  If you get hurt or killed, could they carry on without you? 
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Greekman on March 11, 2014, 07:34:34 AM
it is my understanding that Special forces employ rally points and caches in fallback positions.
In a preppers case than will be 360degrees around.
Escape routes are a logical place and friendly/likeminded homes are too.

believe it or not there was a guy in the 1st season of Doomsday preppers that had his mind and tactics straight.
He had alternate fallback/cache positions in his land and his plan was to flee the house, wait for the marauders to occupy it and reverse the game.

There wa also a thread here -a year? back- on secutrity of the retreat and how would crime woudl develop after a collapse.
lots of good info, i will tell if i find it archived
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on March 11, 2014, 06:58:50 PM
Quote
my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? I'm having no luck searching for "rally point"
-tooparanoid

There are several types of rally points.  A good resource you could use is

Quote
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/Leadersbook_information/Combat_Leaders_Guide/patrol-recon-rally-points-2.shtml
gives a whole presentation on the subject.

Rally point characteristics
Away from natural points of drift ie away from streambeds, utility pole runs, established road and trails.  Basically the rally point route should be "off the beaten path"

Easy to find both day and night.  Use at least two easily defined terrain features either man made or natural.  I used a water tower and a cell phone tower to line up where the rally point was, for example.  Make sure you practice this at night under artificle stress such as doing a bunch of jumping jacks then moving out in bounding overwatch to the rally point.

Offers concealment and cover  make sure the rally point is far enough away from your house that the looters cant see or hear you day and night.  Your family are not tactical ninjas, theres bound to be a lot of talking once hitting the rally point.  Sound travels farther at night, or the looters will be anyways looking for you.  Make sure the kids can carry on a normal conversation, heck even shout a little make a game of it and test if you hear the kids at the rally point from the house.  Cover from small arms is a lengthy topic, research the requirements.

Defendable for short periods.  Nuff said.

Tunnels of Cu Chi by . by Mangold, Tom and Penycate, John.  Great little book and resource.

Google army fms mobile defense.  Hope it helps and have some fun practicing.


Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: soupbone on March 11, 2014, 07:49:33 PM
Remember again that your rally point must be easily reached by all members of the family/group, including 4 yr. old Bobby and 80 year old Aunt Ethel. They need to be able to find it in the dark as much as you will.

soup
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on March 21, 2014, 07:17:09 PM
Quote
My concern with bugging in until roving hordes of thugs come knocking...  how safe would it be at that point to venture out to bug to another location?-Texasgirl

This is a very good point.  Who's not going to have at least some notice?  In my situation my whole community is at my primary residence.  I have friends that have a ton of experience in the security sector within walking distance, other friends that we see at dinner or ski with, and acquaintances that own a plethora of farm animals.  This is in no way stroking the ego, but if my immediate friends, local police that I know, and acquaintances can't shut down the 5 ways to get into town-then is there really much to live for?  We would give up so much, take a huge risk traveling, to arrive at a relatives house that drinks beer and collects food stamps.  I know nothing about the town he lives in other than where the local restaurant is, and where the meth heads like to hang out on the street corner. 

In military terms to "bug out" means decision points.  We develop SOPs, rehearse, have contingencies,  and have a lot of Soldiers that are ready to perform that decision point. 

Its a great point, for me anyways bugging out means getting the family on an airplane and get out of the region.  I should have enough cash, pre-loaded credit cards, gold, and most importantly plan in place to leave the region entirely.  This of course would take a lot of forethought, planning, preparation, talk-through, walk-through, and rehearsing.  It almost seems to bug out within your own region is not feasible if you don't have that BOL community in place.  I don't think I would ever get to that point due to the time it would take to nurture a BOL. 

My family is Ukrainian and got the heck out of dodge back in the 30's.  They had enough resources and wherewithal to get the heck out when the commies started acting up.  I mean look at it today, do you think the Crimean citizens who are loyal to Ukraine have a chance if they just went regionally to some BOL?  Its almost laughable in that context.  The smart citizen would have boarded a flight on 24 FEB.  On the 23rd you had the Night Wolf Gang forming civil defense squads and raising hell.  I don't want to go to far down this rabbit hole, but I think the point is made.

To each his own, but my option is going to be take all that time I would spend on a BOL, and invest that time locally.  Great if you have a secondary residence, friends, resources, etc... For me though Texas Girl hit a home run about my situation and what I would do.       
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: backwoods_engineer on April 02, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
This is a great thread.  I am going to have to digest it and re-think our planning.  Like the OP, I have the Joe Nobody books and his worksheets. 

Our plan is to live in a small town, and have a rural retreat "cabin" that is camouflaged and partly underground, so it would look like some junkpiles from the road.  That is our fallback.  But I haven't planned beyond that, in case we need to bug out of there as well.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on April 02, 2014, 09:16:02 AM
This is a great thread.  I am going to have to digest it and re-think our planning.  Like the OP, I have the Joe Nobody books and his worksheets. 

Our plan is to live in a small town, and have a rural retreat "cabin" that is camouflaged and partly underground, so it would look like some junkpiles from the road.  That is our fallback.  But I haven't planned beyond that, in case we need to bug out of there as well.
I just saw this on the interwebs yesterday.  https://travel.yahoo.com/blogs/compass/at-this-swedish-ecolodge--the-guests-do-all-the-work-213326057.html (https://travel.yahoo.com/blogs/compass/at-this-swedish-ecolodge--the-guests-do-all-the-work-213326057.html)
Put a rocket mass heater in there instead of a traditional fireplace, have natural local vegetation growing on the sides and it just might serve it's purpose as a waypoint on the way to your retreat or several of these around your retreat for guests, LO/OP, etc.  The design is ridiculously simple and using galvanized tin roofing would make the design all that much better for longevity and dryness inside.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 02, 2014, 07:24:41 PM
Quote
I just saw this on the interwebs yesterday.  https://travel.yahoo.com/blogs/compass/at-this-swedish-ecolodge--the-guests-do-all-the-work-213326057.html
Put a rocket mass heater in there instead of a traditional fireplace, have natural local vegetation growing on the sides and it just might serve it's purpose as a waypoint on the way to your retreat or several of these around your retreat for guests, LO/OP, etc.  The design is ridiculously simple and using galvanized tin roofing would make the design all that much better for longevity and dryness inside.
-endurance


Not a bad idea.  Dirt, branches, tin, trashbags are cheap.  What would you use as lashings to make the frame, wire tie or plastic zip ties or both?  These would blend right in. 
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on April 02, 2014, 07:46:27 PM

Not a bad idea.  Dirt, branches, tin, trashbags are cheap.  What would you use as lashings to make the frame, wire tie or plastic zip ties or both?  These would blend right in.
If you really wanted to go hardcore, plumber's tape (http://a83f47d2f7fee90b5467-00decaeac4ff91813387127e0fd01ee3.r3.cf1.rackcdn.com/PlumbersTapeStrapping-300x228.jpg) and brass deck screws.  It would last generations.  Peel the logs so they don't hold moisture under the bark (which is what makes logs in nature decay so quickly).  Probably your biggest issue would be condensation on the walls if it wasn't adequately ventilated, but if it was only for occasional use, that probably wouldn't be a major concern.

In any case, I saw this and thought about how easy it would be to make for a hunting shelter or build several along the way to my hunting location if the SHTF and driving the 60+ miles wasn't possible.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 03, 2014, 02:03:31 PM
This horse has almost been beat to death, but hear it goes. 

Blend an Army fighting position with shelter builds.  The idea is sound because it doesn't cost much money, fighting positions are a proven primitive technology along with the shelters, etc...

BASIC REQUIREMENTS FOR A FIGHTING POSITION
Cover
the cover of your fighting position must be strong enough to protect
you from small arms fire, indirect fire, and the blast wave of a nuclear explosion.

Frontal cover must be:
Thick enough to stop small arms fire at least 18 in of dirt
High enough to protect your head when you fire from behind the cover
Far enough in front of the hole to allow room for elbow holes and sector stakes so that you can fire to the oblique
Long enough to give you cover and hide the muzzle blast of your weapon

Overhead protection provides protection from indirect fragmentation. When possible, overhead cover
is always constructed to enhance protection against airburst.

Simple and Economic

the position should be uncomplicated and strong. Should require as
little digging as possible and be constructed with materials readily available.

Improvement and Development
should allow for continuous development to improve usefulness. Development can be accomplished in three steps:

Dig in quickly.  Speed is the principal consideration and no special tools or materials are required. Improve with materials available Refine, using stock materials

Camouflage
positions should be built so that all can be camouflaged. It may not be
practical to conceal a defensive position completely, but it should be camouflaged enough to
prevent the enemy from spotting the position by ground observation. If possible, dummy
positions should be constructed around your area.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 03, 2014, 03:06:42 PM
Bug out, cheap

(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a636/allenpsmith2/fm3-21-75_img_68_zpsc25d4b68.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/allenpsmith2/media/fm3-21-75_img_68_zpsc25d4b68.jpg.html)

(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a636/allenpsmith2/fig5-34_zps19e4e3bb.gif) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/allenpsmith2/media/fig5-34_zps19e4e3bb.gif.html)
I like this for having a rally point, defensive poz for you and the vehicle

(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a636/allenpsmith2/en0065b0058_zps2048dedb.gif) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/allenpsmith2/media/en0065b0058_zps2048dedb.gif.html)
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: viking on April 03, 2014, 05:40:10 PM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 08, 2014, 10:42:41 AM
I should put in place a bug out plan for:

Normal weather patter events that require a temporary arrangement with family across the state.  This plan requires cash, a route plan, and some coordination with my family.  This plan could also be used in case we loose the home to fire, foreclosure, etc...

A regional event that prevents me from leaving, but we still have to leave the primary residence.  A grid down or any event that shuts off gas pumps would quickly degrade travel.  In this case I should be talking to neighbors and establishing some sort of plan to stay with them temporarily.  I could also have a few of these primitive shelters built to have a place to go temporarily. 

Having a few of these dirt shelters built, if concealed properly, would allow tremendous flexibilty.  I like this option over installing a conex box in the ground.  Its cheap, gives greater flexibilty, easier to conceal, and if 1 dirt shelter is compromised I still have others to use.  Not true for the conex box.  The other thing I like about the dirt shelter is it develops several skills. 
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on April 08, 2014, 01:17:35 PM
...  The other thing I like about the dirt shelter is it develops several skills.

And physical fitness.  I love taking on projects that make me active and a project like this takes hiking in with tools and equipment, digging, hauling dirt and logs, construction, and hiking in your cache of supplies.  Do you know how many muscle groups you're using in a project like this?  Cardio, anaerobic, lifting, varied movements, balance work, fine motor skills... it's got it all and it doesn't require a gym membership.  In fact, when you finish, you have something to show for it for years to come besides just 10 pounds off your mid-section.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 08, 2014, 08:23:02 PM
Quote
So, my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? 2paranoid

SMCT CTT Tasks > Skill Levels 2 4 > 0713265705 Sl2 Establish
071-326-5705 (SL2) - Establish an Observation Post

Note. OPs are generally established along probable avenues of approach to listen and observe and to provide early warning of enemy approach.


Standards: Selected a location for an observation post (OP) that provided observation of the avenues of approach, was within small-arms range of the element, and offered adequate cover and concealment. Established communication between the OP and the platoon leader or squad leader.
Conditions: Given a squad- or platoon-size element in a defensive position, a TA-312/PT field telephone and communication wire, or a radio, and a probable enemy avenue of approach.

Standards: Selected a location for an observation post (OP) that provided observation of the avenues of approach, was within small-arms range of the element, and offered adequate cover and concealment. Established communication between the OP and the platoon leader or squad leader.

Performance Steps

Note. OPs are generally established along probable avenues of approach to listen and observe and to provide early warning of enemy approach.

1.   Select an OP.

     a. The site selected for an OP should provide-

       (1)  Maximum observation of the desired area (specified by the platoon leader).

       (2)  Cover and concealment for the occupants of the OP.

       (3)  Concealed routes to and from the OP.

     b. Observation is the best way to determine whether the above conditions exist at a site.

     c. Usually, the best location for an OP is on or near the military crest of a hill. research military crest of a hill on google.  Topographical crests should be avoided because of the possibility of being skylined. It may be appropriate to establish the OP well down the forward slope when observation is restricted by the terrain.

     d. OPs should be within effective small-arms range of the unit establishing the OP, and should be supported by other supporting fire when possible.

2.   Establish and operate an OP.

     a. Wire is the primary means of communication with an OP and may be supplemented by radio. Wire and radio antennas should be carefully positioned and camouflaged to avoid detection by the enemy (figure 071-326-5705-2).

     b. Personnel going to and from the OP must move carefully so movement does not reveal the location to the enemy. Separate routes to and from the OP are established. Camouflage is most important. The OP should be camouflaged even when natural concealment is adequate.

     c. OPs are operated in reliefs. A minimum of two soldiers is necessary for each relief. One observes while the other records and reports observed information. The observer and recorder should switch duties every 20 to 30 minutes, because the visual efficiency of an observer decreases rapidly after that length of time.

     3.   Establish and operate an OP during limited visibility.

       a. The enemy may use a different, more open avenue of approach during limited visibility conditions; therefore, an OP may have to be moved to another position to serve as an OP at night.

       b. Limited visibility OPs are usually closer to defensive positions. Night vision devices may be given for use on the OP. The enemy deploys infiltrators against the defense at night, so a series of OPs, backed up by alert troops equipped with night vision devices and by snipers, can counter this infiltration.

       c. OPs are operated in relief except when movement to and from positions would reveal their locations or endanger the personnel.

More info http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/SMCT_CTT_Tasks/Skill_Levels_2_4/0713265705-sl2-establish-.shtml
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Alan Georges on April 08, 2014, 09:29:01 PM
:popcorn:
Definitely.  Pass some of that virtual popcorn over here, wouldya?

 :popcorn:  Thanks
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 09, 2014, 07:26:30 PM
The whole idea is to bug out on your own land using primitive shelters, foxholes, spider holes, sheds, etc...  camoflauge is your friend.  The thing about using the primitive shelters and such is you can plant grass, vines, bushes, etc... into them.  They become part of the landscape. 

I also reflected on Jacks episode on bugging out from today's show.  Im thinking about asking a friend across town if I could build a large shed on his land.  He can use it for temporary storage with the understanding if my family ever needs it we could move in for a period.  Just trying to think out of the box on this stuff.  My idea is to set up a few primitive shelters, with a large shed (insulated, some wiring to set up a battery bank, some storage cabinets, and cots, etc...).
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 11, 2014, 12:06:56 PM
List of primitive to log cabins to sheds from amazon.  These all have at least a 4 star rating.

Shelters, Shacks, and Shanties: The Classic Guide to Building Wilderness Shelters (Dover Books on Architecture... by D. C. Beard (Sep 10, 2004)

Cabin, The: Inspiration for the Classic American Getaway Paperback by Dale Mulfinger

Primitive Wilderness Living and Survival Skills by John McPherson and Geri McPherson (Mar 1993)

Rustic Retreats: A Build-It-Yourself Guide by Jeanie Stiles and David Stiles (Jan 7, 1998)

Shelters,Shacks, and Shanties (Elemental Historic Preparedness Collection) by D.C. Beard (Sep 20, 2011)

Building a Shed (Taunton's Build Like a Pro) by Joseph Truini (Feb 1, 2009)

Sheds: The Do-It-Yourself Guide for Backyard Builders by David Stiles and Jeanie Stiles (Jan 11, 2007)

21st Century U.S. Military Documents: Civil Engineer Guide to Fighting Positions, Shelters, Obstacles, and Revetments (Air Force Handbook 10-222, Volume 14)

Here are some free resources for defensive positions

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/survival/fighting-position-design-.shtml Good detail and these would work well in conjunction with permaculture berms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_fighting_position once over the world on fighting positions from the dawn of time to today

A bit about improving the defensive characteristics of an observation post (hide position/defense)  Obviously some of these do not apply to civilians and traditional civil defense bunkers (such as artillery)(and the use of "enemy" put "miscreant" in place of enemy)

Sector Sketch. The section leader prepares a sector sketch (Figure 5-25). This sketch is similar to a fighting position sketch but with some important differences. As a minimum, the sketch includes—
A rough sketch of key and significant terrain, including NAIs and avenues of approach.
Location of the OP.
Location of the hide position.
Locations of vehicle fighting and observation positions.
Alternate positions (hide, fighting, observation).
Routes to and from the OP and fighting positions.
Sectors of observation.
Preplanned artillery targets.
TRPs for direct fire.
Prepared spot reports and calls for fire, based on trigger points and projected locations where the enemy will first be seen.

Improvements. Personnel manning the OP site begin digging in to provide protection from indirect and direct fires. They also camouflage the position, install wire communications equipment and directional antennas for FM communications, and emplace hasty obstacles for local protection. Vehicle commanders and drivers reconnoiter the routes to their fighting or observation positions and alternate positions, perform maintenance, and camouflage vehicles and positions. 

Takeaways-much can be done to your own property, your friend's property, and the local area.  A bug out plan should be put in place that allows the family to:

1) stay local as much as possible.  The time, energy, and community is developed.  If a disaster such as a fire happens to your residence, you plan and arrange to stay at a friends house or have built a livable shed on his property (and vice versa).

2) stay regional as much as possible.  Develop a vacation residence for a longer term stay in a more prolonged crises.

3) Leave the region entirely.  This has not been touched on but have in place passports, cash, etc... to be able to get on a plane and leave.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on April 11, 2014, 04:50:02 PM
I'd add to that list The $50 and Up Underground House Book (http://www.undergroundhousing.com/).  Some very interesting ideas in there and while some of his designs are flawed, when you incorporate a few of Paul Wheaton's ideas and a few of your own, there's a lot there to work with.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 21, 2014, 07:49:10 AM
I'm no expert, but IMHO bugging out due to some breakdown of society will take getting along with others as the primary means of self preservation.  We need the support that a town provides.  You need people in your life from varying backgrounds and culture. You need to trust people now, and if the SHTF to a degree.  It takes only one mistake, even a minor one, to totally screw you and your family.  You need a support network of friends, acquaintances, peers, and people to lean on.  Sure everybody is Rambo and Grissly Adams until stress takes away that higher level thinking.  Under stress you will resort to your worst day practicing a skill set, and that ain't pretty if you're going it alone or just with your family.  You will be dead fairly quickly. 

The whole idea of gangs roaming on bikes is silly.  We have a wonderful technology in America called drones.  If you've never seen what a drone can do you tube it.  The minute if things unravel there will be possibly a massive retaliation with drone technology.  Any large groups of miscreants will be destroyed.  Any group that the govt deams a threat will be destroyed.  If preppers get on the list, anybody hiding out in the mountains will be destroyed.  Drones have thermals, and the operator behind that technology is looking for a kill.  Running around by yourself or with your family in a remote location will be the second place gov'ment will look(1st being interstate highways).  Plenty of operational experience in Afghanistan looking for Taliban climbing mountains to back that statement up.  We enjoyed calling in JDAM and drone strikes on mountains we warned the locals not to be in.  With a single word whole patches of mountains became free fire areas, open to killing anybody caught on them.  The bad guys that lived in small towns, or fringe areas just outside larger population hubs we left alone.  It took a lot of resources to lock down a town, and unless we could prove trouble was coming from a small town, we steered clear.  The urban fight in a town is viscous, even against just a few bad guys.  The minute some wacko survivalist pulls a stunt in a SHTF scenario, then retreats to the mountains, there will be pain.  Lots and lots on drones will provide continuous coverage of remote locations, highways, and state capital areas colocated with airports. 

I get tired of the same old cliche that biker gangs will take your mountain house.  People have no clue about what our own gov'ment would be willing to do.  So go read another silly prepper porn novel about how a family is going to bug out, and go back to sleep.  You will only hear a JDAMS once.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on April 21, 2014, 11:31:50 AM
I'm no expert, but IMHO bugging out due to some breakdown of society will take getting along with others as the primary means of self preservation.  We need the support that a town provides.  You need people in your life from varying backgrounds and culture. You need to trust people now, and if the SHTF to a degree.  It takes only one mistake, even a minor one, to totally screw you and your family.  You need a support network of friends, acquaintances, peers, and people to lean on.  Sure everybody is Rambo and Grissly Adams until stress takes away that higher level thinking.  Under stress you will resort to your worst day practicing a skill set, and that ain't pretty if you're going it alone or just with your family.  You will be dead fairly quickly. 

The whole idea of gangs roaming on bikes is silly.  We have a wonderful technology in America called drones.  If you've never seen what a drone can do you tube it.  The minute if things unravel there will be possibly a massive retaliation with drone technology.  Any large groups of miscreants will be destroyed.  Any group that the govt deams a threat will be destroyed.  If preppers get on the list, anybody hiding out in the mountains will be destroyed.  Drones have thermals, and the operator behind that technology is looking for a kill.  Running around by yourself or with your family in a remote location will be the second place gov'ment will look(1st being interstate highways).  Plenty of operational experience in Afghanistan looking for Taliban climbing mountains to back that statement up.  We enjoyed calling in JDAM and drone strikes on mountains we warned the locals not to be in.  With a single word whole patches of mountains became free fire areas, open to killing anybody caught on them.  The bad guys that lived in small towns, or fringe areas just outside larger population hubs we left alone.  It took a lot of resources to lock down a town, and unless we could prove trouble was coming from a small town, we steered clear.  The urban fight in a town is viscous, even against just a few bad guys.  The minute some wacko survivalist pulls a stunt in a SHTF scenario, then retreats to the mountains, there will be pain.  Lots and lots on drones will provide continuous coverage of remote locations, highways, and state capital areas colocated with airports. 

I get tired of the same old cliche that biker gangs will take your mountain house.  People have no clue about what our own gov'ment would be willing to do.  So go read another silly prepper porn novel about how a family is going to bug out, and go back to sleep.  You will only hear a JDAMS once.
I'm not sure what inspired this post, but I'll bite. 

I'll start by saying that I do think being established in a complete community with a variety of individuals, from blue collar trades like pipe fitting and mechanics to white collar professions like medicine and law.  A few businesses like a good hardware store, a post office, a gas station with a shop, etc, would be ideal, too.  However, you need to be a part of that community before the SHTF.  Showing up one day as a stranger, as you mention, is not going to give you much margin for error.  A few mis-spoken words and you're out of there (or worse).

I think there's a lot of doomer-porn based on EROL (End of Rule Of Law).  It is possible, but only under circumstances where the federal and local governments both collapse, which is improbable.  That said, it's not impossible.  The ability for the federal government to stay functioning after the world stops buying our debt will only last for so long.  At some point hyper-inflation from running the printing presses will erode wages, particularly for federal employees who only get the chance to get raises when congress approves them once a year, to the point where people will leave en mass.  The money to run the infrastructure of the federal government could erode over the period of years to a decade given the right set of circumstances, but it's not likely to happen over night.  Under those circumstances you may see a strengthening of local law enforcement where the local tax base is good and the development of protection rackets where the tax base isn't so good.  Under some of those circumstances you just might get a gang of thugs being the local protection racket.

So I don't plan for roving bands of thugs, but I also live in a place where we could manage them effectively.  A community with limited road access and significant geographic barriers has its benefits and its costs.  During a wildland fire there may only be one or two ways out, all clogged with horse trailers and RVs with panicked drivers, during a major blizzard your little neighborhood might fall to being a very low priority and be isolated, during a hurricane you may live in a place which time forgot and not receive any EMS response for days.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 21, 2014, 03:44:15 PM
EROL Excessive Rule of Law

The federal gov'ment has massive stockpiles of resources and is adequately prepared.  We are talking about a shtf and bugging out, what the context will look like.  If one thinks a military organization is going to implode in a shtf is foolish.  In a shtf they become a self licking ice cream cone, with unlimited resources, thanks to the citizens of their nation. There are too numerous to count what a nation's military has done to its own citizens to ignore what is probable under shtf.  You think that a unit is going hungry, run out of gas, not have a nice shelter because their logistics trail dried up?  Come on now, dream up the most oppressive scenario of what the gov'ment would do, then multiply it by 10. 
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on April 21, 2014, 04:17:46 PM
EROL Excessive Rule of Law

The federal gov'ment has massive stockpiles of resources and is adequately prepared.  We are talking about a shtf and bugging out, what the context will look like.  If one thinks a military organization is going to implode in a shtf is foolish.  In a shtf they become a self licking ice cream cone, with unlimited resources, thanks to the citizens of their nation. There are too numerous to count what a nation's military has done to its own citizens to ignore what is probable under shtf.  You think that a unit is going hungry, run out of gas, not have a nice shelter because their logistics trail dried up?  Come on now, dream up the most oppressive scenario of what the gov'ment would do, then multiply it by 10.
I agree with you in 95% of the scenarios out there, but satellites don't last forever, complex mechanical flying machines need replacement parts that are manufactured in one plant in the entire world, and rockets cost hundreds of millions of dollars to put into orbit.  As a result, some of the most high tech tools may not be on the battlefield forever.  Toss in a foreign or domestically launched EMP and you have another whole layer of fubar to contend with.

Boots on the ground may always exist or not (some may be more loyal to the constitution than to their masters), but endless abundant technology may always have limits.  Besides, if you don't have constantly running printing presses the food stamps and unemployment checks stop rolling out and then the government has bigger problems to contend with in the city than a few ornery farmers and ranchers.

I'm not a guy who bases his preps on Red Dawn.  I'm just saying that I keep an open mind to all possibilities.  My priority is to build community and resilience so no matter how things go down, I'll have my family in the best position possible.  That includes the desire to have a few caches in the woods between where I live and where I plan on continuing to hunt even if I can't drive there.  Worst case scenario, it's a huge bonus.  If nothing goes wrong, I have the opportunity to have fun with a couple friends building some fun shelters in the woods and get to have a place to spend the night if the weather moves in while I'm hunting.  win-win.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: The Professor on April 21, 2014, 04:56:39 PM
EROL Excessive Rule of Law

The federal gov'ment has massive stockpiles of resources and is adequately prepared.  We are talking about a shtf and bugging out, what the context will look like.  If one thinks a military organization is going to implode in a shtf is foolish.  In a shtf they become a self licking ice cream cone, with unlimited resources, thanks to the citizens of their nation. There are too numerous to count what a nation's military has done to its own citizens to ignore what is probable under shtf.  You think that a unit is going hungry, run out of gas, not have a nice shelter because their logistics trail dried up?  Come on now, dream up the most oppressive scenario of what the gov'ment would do, then multiply it by 10. 

So, what you're saying is that the greatest threat to a US Citizen's life during a massive disaster is our own military?

By your own statement: ". . .dream up the most oppressive scenario of what a gov'ment [sic] would do, then multiply it by 10. . ." this means that you are stating that the US MILITARY will be the most oppressive gang on the block.  Using prior statements in re drones, are you indicating that under a widespread disaster (let's say an EMP/CME event) that the military will be going out, securing peoples stockpiles of food, ammo, medicine, etc., and then sending drones out to search and destroy those in rural areas?

Personally, I think you destroyed your own argument against motorcyle-riding Mad Max scenarios.   Granted, the military may be using HMMWV's and MRAP's as well as .50 calibers, 40mm's, 20mm's and 7.62's against the populace, but what does it matter if the guy threatening your life is wearing a blonde mohawk and assless chaps or kevlar and ACU's?

By your own statement, the Gangs will be clean-cut and wearing NYCO Ripstop instead of shaved-headed, testosterone-laden guys in leather jockstraps and hockey masks.

Ultimately, what's the difference?   You are in a hostile environment with an organized group intending steal yours and do you harm.  Does the mode of transportation or specific apparel really make a difference?

Or, are you saying, it's better to live on your knees with the military oppressing you than stand on your feet when a motorcycle gang does it?

The Professor
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: nelson96 on April 21, 2014, 05:28:02 PM
.... My priority is to build community and resilience so no matter how things go down, I'll have my family in the best position possible.  That includes the desire to have a few caches in the woods between where I live and where I plan on continuing to hunt even if I can't drive there.  Worst case scenario, it's a huge bonus.  If nothing goes wrong, I have the opportunity to have fun with a couple friends building some fun shelters in the woods and get to have a place to spend the night if the weather moves in while I'm hunting.  win-win.

.... are you saying, it's better to live on your knees with the military oppressing you than stand on your feet when a motorcycle gang does it?

Interesting final comments to the same post.  Thought provoking, both.  All three actually.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 21, 2014, 05:46:01 PM
The difference is the gov'ment could possibly hire those motorcycle gangs and miscreants like what happened in when R¥ssia hired a gang to raise hell in the Crimean Pen. (and the thug gov'ment we propped up in @fhanistan.  The difference is the gangs could be working for the gov'ment as "peace officers" or "security contractors" like @fghanistan.  Gangs could not do that to the gov'ment.  Layer hired gangs, with military, with feder@lized local p0lice officers, dr0ne technology, JDA@Ms, ad nauseam.  Besides the gov'ment already has the legal authority to k|ll a citizen, thanks to the NDA@ and P@triot Act.  Just because its not acceptable  practice now, doesnt mean it cant or wont be done in the future.  One has a lot more to fear in gov'ment than roving motorcycle gangs stealing your chickens and raiding your liquor cabinet.

Rural areas are easy pickings for a military unit, don't think for one second because you live in some remote area your safe is all I'm saying.  Hillbillies in the sticks are figurately and literally easy pickings and convenient political target if shtf.  Nobody cares if a few hillbillies get smoked on the back forty while cities are falling apart.  Besides it makes everybody feel good the gov'ment is taking out backwoods t€rrorist in a rural area while urban areas are falling apart.  It also makes for great 30 second news clips to see a suspected t€rrorist farm house get JDA@M'd or h€llfire missle go through the chimney.

The hardest areas from a military and political standpoint is the small towns on the fringe areas of large cities.  You just cant smoke town folk, it makes city folk nervous.

Again this is all .00000000001% stuff, and is good escapist fantasy while my son gets ready for bed.

Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Cedar on April 21, 2014, 08:55:15 PM
You are talking about Titushki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky I am not convinced it was Party of Regions who hired them. Viktor Yanukovych was titushki before he became president.

Cedar
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: The Professor on April 21, 2014, 09:22:09 PM

The hardest areas from a military and political standpoint is the small towns on the fringe areas of large cities.  You just cant smoke town folk, it makes city folk nervous.

Again this is all .00000000001% stuff, and is good escapist fantasy while my son gets ready for bed.



So, what is a realistic, in your mind, scenario? 

Do you not think that the criminal element will band together in a protracted WROL?  Would they oppress their less-than-criminal neighbor?  Would an area without a dedicated "law enforcement" capability revert back to the Frontier West of the U.S.? Or would a balance be struck and the citizens stand up for their mutual protection?

Or, is the concept of an Extended WROL scenario impossible/implausible to you?

The Professor
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 21, 2014, 09:38:04 PM
Its all 4th generational w@rfare stuff.  Again these observations set the context of shtf and bugging out.  Knowing the context of what could possibly happen allows the end user the ability to plan tactical considerations.  We, meaning US, have been using remote control non state actors for decades to carry out vi0lence on our behalf.  4th generational w@rfare is a way to conduct decentralized, remote control w@r in fringe, remote areas, while your regular units hit the main effort of a conflict.  We've done it in Vietn@m, Cub@, Nicaragu@, El S@lvador, Ir@q, Afgh@nistan, ad nauseam.  For more info on the background go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_warfare

R¥ssia pulls the same crap.  If you want to split hairs on whether they were remote piloting the gangs in the Crimean Pen, great.  I know we love the fog of war and fomenting doubt/deception with our tactical operations.  It is unclear whether mother R¥ssia hired the thugs.  The result of those miscreants raising hell plays into R¥ssian hands.  The connection is made whether R¥ssia paid them or not.

Here is some more 4th generational stuff.  The R¥ssians back in 2008 introduced a computer virus into Georgia before they started kinetic offensive operations.  Background is http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/russian-hackers-beaten-at-their-own-game/

I guess R¥ssia is the only country that would use 4th gen w@r, we would probably not employ gangs and miscreants to subdue rural areas while the military controls mobility corridors.  We, meaning US, only hire gangsters in foreign countries, sh00t americans with dron€ technology if the color of their skin is brown and m¥slim, and would never consider our own units would pull these stunts. 

Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: The Professor on April 22, 2014, 12:47:15 AM
Its all 4th generational w@rfare stuff.  Again these observations set the context of shtf and bugging out.  Knowing the context of what could possibly happen allows the end user the ability to plan tactical considerations.  We, meaning US, have been using remote control non state actors for decades to carry out vi0lence on our behalf.  4th generational w@rfare is a way to conduct decentralized, remote control w@r in fringe, remote areas, while your regular units hit the main effort of a conflict.  We've done it in Vietn@m, Cub@, Nicaragu@, El S@lvador, Ir@q, Afgh@nistan, ad nauseam.  For more info on the background go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_warfare

R¥ssia pulls the same crap.  If you want to split hairs on whether they were remote piloting the gangs in the Crimean Pen, great.  I know we love the fog of war and fomenting doubt/deception with our tactical operations.  It is unclear whether mother R¥ssia hired the thugs.  The result of those miscreants raising hell plays into R¥ssian hands.  The connection is made whether R¥ssia paid them or not.

Here is some more 4th generational stuff.  The R¥ssians back in 2008 introduced a computer virus into Georgia before they started kinetic offensive operations.  Background is http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/russian-hackers-beaten-at-their-own-game/

I guess R¥ssia is the only country that would use 4th gen w@r, we would probably not employ gangs and miscreants to subdue rural areas while the military controls mobility corridors.  We, meaning US, only hire gangsters in foreign countries, sh00t americans with dron€ technology if the color of their skin is brown and m¥slim, and would never consider our own units would pull these stunts. 



Sooo, you're saying that a realistic scenario is an high-tech insurrection of the U.S. conducted by non-state actors and coordinated by a First-world foreign military?

Is this what you're expecting?  Do you have any suggested timelines for this?

Oh, and BTW, if you're trying to circumvent the logical combinatorial system used by spiders to determine symbolic relationships in terms and phrases, you need to substitute more than one letter in a word.  You'll need at least 2/3rds to trick most boolean algebraic-based search systems.  Even that doesn't work, in most cases, if you use the same number of letters/symbols in the original word.

The Professor
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 23, 2014, 10:01:15 AM
I think it's great escapist fantasy that will never happen.  It's much more useful to plan to "bug out" in case you loose your home to foreclosure and fire than to think about the zombie apocalypse. 

WROL is like using the F bomb, everybody thinks it's funny and cute, but at the end of the day nobody takes you seriously.  Sure there may be temporary WROL in the large cities, but when the gov'ment puts the boots down, it will get EROL quickly.  Could there be areas WROL for a period? Sure there can, that is, until the 24/7 reaper drones show up.  To plan a whole collapse around a WROL scenario, where the prepper has geared up a wicked 4X4 truck, 5.11 tacti-cool wardrobe, and carries a BOB that screams "loot here", the EROL event will come rolling along (and military) and say, "thanks for your stuff, you served your country well." 

Practicing skills such as primitive shelter builds, community building, and tossing around ideas is cheap and fun.  Sure we are going to see some bad stuff happen mostly as we are removed as the peg from the petro dollar.  A total SHTF collapse-never. 

Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: endurance on April 23, 2014, 10:26:01 AM
Let's try to steer this thread back on to the original intent; to answer the questions below.  We all have different ideas of what we're preparing for, different personal situations and different tactical considerations.  With that in mind, try to lend what aid you can to others without getting too deeply into why the person is asking for the situation other than just the context.  While we all could use a little reality checking from time to time, this thread is steering toward more philosophical differences than necessary.

Thanks

...
So, my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? I'm having no luck searching for "rally point" - I get links to some stupid video games. Is there an Army manual available that I can download that covers the principles I need to understand to make sure my family survives an attack such as I describe?
...
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on April 25, 2014, 12:00:13 PM
Visual aides to understand tactical operations from you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B3GB5i4Yh8 regular Army OPORD briefing in typical field environment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHE3Rq7FOBk a little fringe but this guy had a high view count.  Troop Leading procedures explained

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQtpmuuzLlE good cartoon/animation on basic operations produced by the Army

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gruu3ArsPkY tips on the Army OPORD process

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQpoGyVxENE LP/OP video.  This is as wrong as two bird chirping.  Fast forward to 1:40 and see how many mistakes this guy made with the LP/OP



Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Canadian Prepper on April 25, 2014, 08:53:51 PM
I really appreciate Big_Al's contributions to this thread.

We are mostly in uncharted territory with regard to WROL or EROL in North America, so I think we should at least consider the effects of developing technologies upon what may happen. Just the changes in night vision technology and their increased availability in the past decades have changed things immensely, so once we add additional considerations like drones, it's amazing to ponder the possibilities.

I think that while increased criminality in the countryside (i.e. Argentina) or some localized rioting might justifiably inform some preps along the lines of the OP's initial post, people organizing to help each other economically, or to resist EROL much like the Solidarity movement in Poland during the 80s might play a bigger role in what might come to pass. At least the latter response, grounded in interpersonal relations, might work best to overcome the advantages of modern technology, that probably cannot be countered too directly, and it could be directed against any roving bands of looters if need be.

Canada owns far less drones than the US, so until we have a crisis up here of sufficient scale to draw in all of those US resources things might pan out differently, but other elements of 4th dimension warfare could still inform what happens here in the meantime. I don't have a country home yet, but hope to at least get dual citizenship (Canada and Hungary, a EU member) along with better organizing my alternate emergency living arrangements (within the city or nearby suburb) in the shorter term (a few months to a year). Since my long term goals are to have a home built on the families' cottage lot, once that happens I will be similarly prepared to what Big_Al recommends. I also subscribe to the idea of forming as large a network of prepared friends as possible, but only time will tell how far I'll get in that regard.

Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Big_Al on July 20, 2014, 12:59:56 PM
Jack hit a home run lately about the fantasy shtf scenarios vs what is likely to happen in reality.  None of us can accurately 100% predict what will happen in the future to the U.S., the world, when it comes to predicting the unknown.  If we can't predict what unknowns we will face, then we should focus on what is most likely to happen, and plan out from that point forward.  We know we will face a job loss at some point in our careers, and this is an excellent starting point.

I recently had a job loss.  I knew the job loss was coming, so my wife and I started planning a year out.  We saved enough money to pay bills, and have some extra for living, for a 6 month period.  I know that I have many demonstrable marketable skills, and figured I could beat the average of 6-8 months to find a new job in my functional area.  It took a full 6 months to find a job.  At the 4 month mark, our family went through the stress of me not having work.  We stayed positive, and I took all that negative energy of worry and made a plan, or roadmap, to get hired. 

My wife practiced being the interview boss and quizzed me DAILY on interview questions.  I also made it a point to dress nicely everyday, even though I was unemployed.  I also worked out HEAVY everyday to mitigate stress.  We watched what we ate, and planned healthy meals.  I would also work everyday finding a job, meaning making phone calls, tailoring different types of resumes, and really getting into detail on the coverletter.  On a side note, we were very happy to dive into the food we stored, as it really kept the food cost down during this stressful time. 

Now that I have found a job, we a working on replenishing our food and cash stores.  I was able to build up an emergency fund, but not nearly as much saved when we used it last.  This came in handy, as I paid CASH for an auto repair that came up.  We are clipping coupons and doing all we can to get back our 6 month supply of food.  Once we get a healthy food bank and cash reserve, we will start planning again.
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: Alan Georges on July 20, 2014, 04:00:22 PM
Well done, Big Al!
Title: Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
Post by: TexasGirl on July 20, 2014, 07:52:40 PM
Way to go Big Al, glad it worked out well!

~TG