The Survival Podcast Forum

Armory, Self Defense, And EDC => Firearms (Including Long Guns, Pistols) => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: The Professor on September 28, 2018, 03:27:15 PM

Title: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: The Professor on September 28, 2018, 03:27:15 PM
Awhile back I wrote an article here making a recommendation that people may want to extend themselves a bit and purchase a firearm.  We have been given about a two-year grace period where no one is panicking about the availability of firearms or ammo due to a political issue.

That may be about to change.

In just over a month, we are going to have one of the most important political voting situations we've ever faced.  I'm not supporting one side or another in this post, but. . .consider what would happen if the liberals take Congress.  Remember what happened during Obama's first and second elections.  The Masses believed a political attack on the 2nd Amendment would soon follow, though no such attack really did.

This time, the liberals, if they take a majority of the Congress, will believe they have a Mandate From the Masses.  David Hogg and his like will be all over the TV demanding action and threatening "real change."

Prices will soon rise and stocks will begin to deplete.  While ammo prices may fluctuate, mainly so they can empty their warehouses, Modern Sporting Rifles will quickly disappear and prices will rise.  Manufacturers, having been bitten twice, are hesitant to flood the market with either lowers or complete rifles, again.  Consider how many manufacturers have fallen by the wayside in the past ten years.

Just take it as some friendly advice, you may want to make your final purchases and head towards the checkouts in the next month or so.

Or, it may not happen and then we have until the Dems start trotting out their next Presidential Candidates and launching their attacks on the President.

The Professor
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on September 28, 2018, 05:55:27 PM
^^^ this.  And, right now there are bargains out there.  Even if all goes well legislatively, is unlikely that prices will ever be lower.  Now is a good time to stock up.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Carl on September 29, 2018, 05:40:36 AM
  How many rifles and how much ammo should I have?
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: The Professor on September 29, 2018, 08:55:08 AM
  How many rifles and how much ammo should I have?

All of them.

And more.

The Professor
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on September 29, 2018, 10:10:36 AM
All of them.

And more.

The Professor

I think Carl is ready to move towards artillery.  :)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Carl on September 29, 2018, 10:14:41 AM
  I can build what I can't buy.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: mountainmoma on September 29, 2018, 11:30:38 AM
Ok, maybe I should buy a modern sprting rifle, htey are light weight, adjustable, etc.... but maybe expensive ? Are there still components to put together ?  ANd, even if I do or dont buy a new one, I have some practice ammo, but what would be a good actual round for the mini-14, not just for practice ? And, how many rounds should one have...... My house is only so big.....
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on September 29, 2018, 11:55:13 AM
I'll start by saying I personally have over 1000 rounds of each 5.56, .308, 9mm, .45 ACP, .38 Special, and well north of 5k of 12 gauge. I believe in buying and storing ammo. Oh forgot 20k of .22.

The market is telling us this is a buyer's opportunity. I don't know about legal stuff and how laws might change but with Remington filing for bankruptcy you know the market is tight and margins suck. Basically it's the best deal you'll get.

For a long time I worked a job that had early Fridays in the summer and my wife didn't. I would swing by Fleet Farm and buy a brick of .22 and something else, mow the lawn, shower, and have Champagne on ice when she got home at 5. A couple years of that even when I shot a lot built up quite the stock. That was when 500 .22 and 20 5.56 ran me $20.

If you can work a weekly small ammo purchase you will not regret it. My last walk through Fleet Farm 12 gauge was on a deep sale. $5 a box. $50 would buy 250 rounds of either #8, #7.5, or #6. I wouldn't taunt a guy with 250 rounds of upland game load. I like #4 Buck but the sales are good.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: surfivor on September 29, 2018, 11:58:38 AM

I am thinking of voting for Republicans. I have never done that before but rather in the past I abstained from voting. I will have to lie and tell my mother I didn’t vote. This shows you that telling the truth is not always necessary and sometimes white lies are perfectly fine
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: mountainmoma on September 29, 2018, 12:05:05 PM
I'll start by saying I personally have over 1000 rounds of each 5.56, .308, 9mm, .45 ACP, .38 Special, and well north of 5k of 12 gauge. I believe in buying and storing ammo. Oh forgot 20k of .22.

The market is telling us this is a buyer's opportunity. I don't know about legal stuff and how laws might change but with Remington filing for bankruptcy you know the market is tight and margins suck. Basically it's the best deal you'll get.

For a long time I worked a job that had early Fridays in the summer and my wife didn't. I would swing by Fleet Farm and buy a brick of .22 and something else, mow the lawn, shower, and have Champagne on ice when she got home at 5. A couple years of that even when I shot a lot built up quite the stock. That was when 500 .22 and 20 5.56 ran me $20.

If you can work a weekly small ammo purchase you will not regret it. My last walk through Fleet Farm 12 gauge was on a deep sale. $5 a box. $50 would buy 250 rounds of either #8, #7.5, or #6. I wouldn't taunt a guy with 250 rounds of upland game load. I like #4 Buck but the sales are good.

There are no decent stores close by ( big 5 may have  few boxes of this and that, dont count on what you may want, and that is a 35 minute drive), so for me, it has to be more at a time, less often, and usually mail order, which, yes, we can do, but only thru a licensed ammo seller, and some people have stepped up and started small at home businesses fully licensed by the state to do so..... probably time to order before they add the costs of background checks
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on September 29, 2018, 12:15:44 PM
Ok, maybe I should buy a modern sprting rifle, htey are light weight, adjustable, etc.... but maybe expensive ? Are there still components to put together ?  ANd, even if I do or dont buy a new one, I have some practice ammo, but what would be a good actual round for the mini-14, not just for practice ? And, how many rounds should one have...... My house is only so big.....

It depends on the age of the mini-14.  The twist rate changed from 1 in 10" (1975 to early 1989) to 1 in 7" (1989 to mid 1994) to 1 in 9" (1994 to present).  Assuming 1 in 9" for general purposes you will most likely want a round with a 55 grain bullet in a reloadable brass case. In NATO military ammo the M193 cartridge from a quality manufacturer is a good choice.  The PMC Bronze 223 Remington in 55 grain is also a good budget friendly choice.  It will also shoot the variety of game specific 223 rounds like the Remington Hog Hammer.  But that type of specialty round should be viewd as auxilary to general purpose.

Regarding quantity, if it fits your budget, for general purposes purchase full cases which are 1000 rounds or so depending on packaging.  If you plan on storing, rounds that come in battle packs are nice and convenient.

(https://ii.cheaperthandirt.com/fcgi-bin/iipsrv.fcgi?FIF=/images/cheaperthandirt/source/56206_1.tif&wid=575&cvt=jpeg)



Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: LvsChant on September 29, 2018, 03:30:28 PM
BulkAmmo.com has been a good choice for us in the past... Thanks for posting this reminder... I think we may need to stock up a bit more.

22LR is only $199/5000 rds, so about the same as David mentioned a few years back...

Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: bcksknr on September 29, 2018, 03:50:48 PM
    Other than for trade or barter, I don't see the need for thousands of rounds of ammunition. Self-defense is another matter. Are you really going to go through a thousand rounds of ammo to hold off the intruder at the door? Not that carefully chosen firearms of different capabilities and a reasonable amount of ammunition for each doesn't make sense for the prepared individual. Of course it does. While an important part of any preparation planning, the cost of many firearms and huge amounts of ammunition should be behind many other preparations on the list.
     Are you in debt; credit card or mortgage? Do you have outstanding loans? Do you have a well maintained home and vehicle? Have you an adequate supply of food, medicine, household supplies? Do you have clothing and "outdoor" gear suitable for your climate. Do you have realistic emergency bags, with essential shelter, fire, water, first aid, foods and "camping" items for yourself and everyone else in your family; in case you have to leave your home? Have you made a portable folder with all of your important documents and contact lists? If you have children, have you explained to them what to do during possible emergencies. Have you really gained and shared enough knowledge to survive?
     We all know the drill. There is a place for firearms and ammunition in all of this, but I don't think its at the top of the list. Don't forget about training to use those firearms in a safe and effective manner, for every member of the family. If you think all you need to survive a breakdown of society is a gun, because you are going to shoot someone more prepared and take what they have, remember, they will shoot back. I understand that firearms will be essential for self defense and perhaps food gathering, but I wouldn't "short change" other essential supplies. Of course, if you have no firearms or ammunition and you really believe that they will be denied to you in the near future, then now might be a prudent time to reasonably buy a gun and the supplies to "keep it going". All things in moderation. [size=78%]   [/size]
 

     
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on September 29, 2018, 04:23:58 PM
    Other than for trade or barter, I don't see the need for thousands of rounds of ammunition. Self-defense is another matter. Are you really going to go through a thousand rounds of ammo to hold off the intruder at the door?
The real reason for having thousands of rounds on hand is for training.  Running through 500 rounds in a day's class isn't unusual.  It's way better to buy it while it's cheap and available, now, than to dawdle and get caught short in an expensive ammo drought.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: The Professor on September 29, 2018, 06:11:20 PM
The real reason for having thousands of rounds on hand is for training.  Running through 500 rounds in a day's class isn't unusual.  It's way better to buy it while it's cheap and available, now, than to dawdle and get caught short in an expensive ammo drought.

This. . . .and other reasons.

I know it is  no longer de rigueur to talk of TEOTWAWKI scenarioes or MAJOR interruptions.  But there still lies the (however remote) possibility of a truly long-term disaster striking. 

Ammunition is not necessarily just for mowing down your errant neighbors or the spikey-haired mutant zombies cresting the hill behind your retreat.

There are many situations that may make it wise to purchase ammo and weapons while the prices are still low.  Consider a major shift in politics.  We know that liberals desperately want to enact a much more definitive "assault weapons" ban.  Consider what happened the last time (1994) this happened.  Before, I could buy Colt (top quality) AR's for $560 for an HBAR.  The day after Clinton signed the bill?  Yeah, you couldn't even touch one for $3,000.

When Obama got elected, especially the second time. . . guns, magazines and ammo skyrocketed in price.  Certain calibers of ammunition were impossible to find.  Sure, you could order them. . .and you'd have to wait a year to get that order in.  In fact, everything was so difficult to find that many dealers (and suppliers) went out of business for lack of product to sell.  Sure, many fly-by-night companies popped up and everyone with a CAM started turning out AR lowers, for example.  You paid dearly for even them.

It's usually at this point someone politely coughs and mumble "I reload" under their breath.  Yeah, so do I.  A quick review of the articles posted here on TSP Forum will remind you that primers, powder, virgin brass and bullets. . .especially by easily recognized manufacturers were all as easy to find as hen's teeth.

That was the year that my wife and I stopped our competitive shooting in IPSC, 3-gun and IDPA matches all together.  We shot at least two matches a month and needed a MINIMUM of 100 rounds for most of the matches.  Math tells us we needed at least 400 rounds a month when ammo was almosts impossible to find.  Plus, the political environment experienced at the time had us concerned that a lame-duck liberal president might choose to advance an anti-gun agenda.    If I couldn't buy it and I couldn't reload it. . .every round fired downrange was a round I wouldn't have.

I get it, I really do.  It has become gauche to talk about guns and survival.  Anymore, if you mention Bug-Out Bags, Retreats or Firearms, all the Cool Survival Kids look at you like a Frenchman who just heard you pronounce the silent "t" in escargot.

And may all that is Holy protect you if you mention camouflage or say something against the "gray man" (mis?)conception. . .but, I'm just pointing out a situation and opportunity on which the window is closing. . .I'm neither standing there pushing you out, nor am I deriding anyone who doesn't.

We are simply approaching a confluence of potential situations, each of which may lead to higher prices and unavailability of certain products.  Now, I'll  hush up, put on my most excellent set of BDU's, get my Pit Yorkie and go patrol the compound on my quad-runner.

The Professor
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Bradbn4 on September 29, 2018, 07:13:28 PM
Reloading is fine; a very good hobby, and a way for long distance target shooters to wring out the very last oz of perfection.

But what I have found over the last handful of years it is hard to find the material for reloading when anything go's bump in the market place.

The stock of 22lr ammo has for the most part stabilized and I can more often than not find a good supply all around Colorado.   So it is a good time to stock up on that just because you can.

I remember a 4+ years back I could have received 4x return on selling bricks of 22lr.  A friend of mine could not find any ammo for his 22lr so he ended up buying a different rifle (22-250) so he could control varmints on his land and have something to plink with.  I tossed him about 1/2 brick of cheap ammo I had that would work, but it was a bit under powered for even my Ruger 10/22 to work with. 

I would like to say the Professor is 100% wrong, but you don't fix your roof when it is raining cats and dogs, you fix it when the weather is good.  And right now the weather is about as good as it can get.



Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on September 29, 2018, 07:16:45 PM
I think different. I buy ammo I'm going to use. I have ammo that I bought a decade ago (it doesn't go bad) that I am working through now. When things got tight under Obama (I'm too young for Clinton) I was giving out bricks of .22s to guys crying and thanking me.

Ask yourself... Could a new president mandate higher qualification for the FBI/CIA/NSA/military? If I doubled the requirement of ammo to the government would civilian prices rise?

I have 100% no evidence and I certainly know no one in the industry (not like I live across the river from Federal and live among the employees) but I fully believe the ammo shortages were because the feds bought it all up. After losing in the courts the grabbers went after ammo. Believe it or not the target of your guns is the ammo. Ask what doubling the price of 9mm does to your IDPA club. Amazingly in the late 00s you could get every hunting round but 9mm, .45, 5.56, and 7.62 went away. And none so bad as .22.

If I was in the government and I wanted to ban your guns I would try to make ammo hard to find. Not the one shot one kill expensive ammo. I'd target the ammo for beginners. I'd go after your "day at the range" ammo. And how many kids never got that first .22?

Again, I have no idea what I'm talking about and this is random speculation. I've certainly never spoken to an ammo employee and heard "we can't even stock .22 in the company store and we aren't sure where it's going but you won't see it for retail".

Having enough ammo for a few seasons just makes sense. And my bolt .22 has only ever gotten one load. So I'm dedicated to giving it just that load. I've (roughly) settled on a medium game load for my .308 but I have a rough idea where all common loads land. Medium game might hit well out to 400 yards but I know the holdover for a heavier bullet that will hit farther.

Also worth mentioning... Get a gun in a goofy caliber. Ammo shortages hit common stuff but a weirdo still sits on the shelves.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on September 29, 2018, 07:38:24 PM
This. . . .and other reasons.
Yep, and thanks for listing them.  We've had a few ammo droughts, true, but we have to be ready for a decade-long ammo dessert.

Also worth mentioning... Get a gun in a goofy caliber. Ammo shortages hit common stuff but a weirdo still sits on the shelves.
Huh, yeah, that's an interesting idea.  I wonder if 6.8 SPC is sufficiently goofy yet?  Any other suggestions?

Along the same lines, maybe a dirt-common civilian-only caliber – say something like a 30-30.  "It's just a moderate-powered deer rifle.  Nothing to see here folks, move along."
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on September 29, 2018, 07:44:21 PM
Two other points. 

One is quality.  Buying in bulk during times of surplus allows one to buy better quality for the same or less.  I just laid in a 5000 round case of CCI Mini Mag for 5 cents a round. Just two years ago less reliable 22 was selling for 8 cents a round.  CCI Mini Mag during this time disappeared.  So why wait and pay more for worse?

The second is confidence, which I think David touched on.  i would never trust our lives to any firearm I havent put at least several hundred rounds of the specific ammo through.  Switching ammo is inserting an unknown variable which can affect reliability.  And with rifles it also directly impacts accuracy; both in terms of group size and zero.  And this can even happen between lots of a given ammo. 

For these reasons we adopted the best practice of finding an ammo that runs well {reliable and accurate) for each primary firearm and stack it deep.  Another plus is that it has appreciated well.  For example, the 4 cents high quality surplus 8mm mauser rounds we bought 15 years ago are now worth 40+ cents.  So there is little downside to buying ammo now.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: bcksknr on September 30, 2018, 08:51:07 AM
     I'm just an average shooter. I don't shoot competitively; I don't go through hundreds of rounds a month. With the exception of .22's, I don't buy commercial ammunition. I handload everything I shoot and have done so for years. Each rifle or pistol has one weight and brand bullet and and one type primer and one powder and load. I feel I practice enough (five minutes from a private range) to be competent in what I might want to do. Am I a high speed pistolero? No. Can I make a thousand yard shot? Not with with my long guns. I don't particularly enjoy punching holes in paper targets with a brick of .22's (our range prohibits tin can, milk jug or exploding target plinking, not that I would want to).
     Because I handload more than I shoot, I've amassed a fair quantity of ammunition for all my firearms. I'm a gun hunter and good at it. I have a concealed carry license and earned it through a quality training program, so I practice more with my regular carry gun. I'm not as "good" as I should be, but then who is? I also have a life and responsibilities outside of the world of firearms. I guess I can "talk smart" because I have piled up thousands of rounds of ammunition. Before that happened (and while it was happening) I made sure that I had all of the bases of survivalism covered. Will I ever live long enough to shoot it all? Probably not.
     What I see is that "panic" buying produces it's own "shortages". I remember a few years back when the rumor was that toilet paper was going to be in short supply. whether it was true or not, lots of folks proceeded to clear off the store shelves. I do believe that the past and present ammunition shortages, for what ever reason, have been real. However, I think some of the shortages were caused in part by "panic" or opportunistic buying. At gun shows, I've heard more than once that ammunition was bought in quantity in hopes of making a "killing" if the prices went up. The same with various models of firearms and magazines (over buying for a future profit has even been advocated in this Forum). My opinion, for what it's worth is that whenever a "Liberal" gets elected, there is a mad rush to buy because "their going to take our guns and ammunition away". The prices rise; the supply dwindles. We have basically done it to ourselves.
     Anyway, we all have our own take on the need for "adequate" amounts of ammunition and firearms, for whatever purpose. I fully understand the concerns of those who do shoot hundreds of rounds a month. If shortages do occur, for whatever reason, a basement full of ammunition, purchased in advanced, is important for you. My take is that I want enough for self defense and food gathering (maybe barter). Because I enjoy reloading, I also realize that I have way more than those needs require. My personal philosophy is "what good was a thousand rounds of ammo, if the guy who shoots you dead only has ten".   
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: fritz_monroe on September 30, 2018, 05:14:49 PM
I'll admit that I jumped on the bandwagon when Obama was elected.  I bought my first ever handgun.  I got caught up in the excitement about he was going to ban just about everything.

I am thinking of voting for Republicans. I have never done that before but rather in the past I abstained from voting. I will have to lie and tell my mother I didn’t vote. This shows you that telling the truth is not always necessary and sometimes white lies are perfectly fine
I stopped voting for lesser of 2 evils about 20 years ago.  The lesser of 2 evils is still evil.  I started voting my conscience.  I vote for the person I want to win.  If I do not feel a strong about supporting a candidate, I vote against the incumbent.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Stwood on September 30, 2018, 05:41:26 PM
I quit buying a couple years ago. I bought what ammo I use.

I found Midway to be the best prices on rifle ammo, and Academy the best prices on shotgun ammo, especially .410
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2018, 06:49:05 PM
The window for ammo pretty much already closed for me, out here in California, ten months ago.  2017 was the last year I could get ammunition shipped direct to my address, so I was motivated to seriously overextended myself all year long, right up to the bitter end. 

I was going to start buying reloading components this year, as those items can still be legally purchased and shipped direct to CA addresses, but have thus far spent the money on additional weapons, instead.

Even with all the draconian legislation of late, weapon prices and selection remain extremely favorable out here.  Never underestimate the manufacturer's ability to figure out ways to keep selling to people in California, as there are plenty of AR's (legally sold without bullet buttons for the time being) to be had at fair prices out here.

Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: mountainmoma on September 30, 2018, 09:02:21 PM


Even with all the draconian legislation of late, weapon prices and selection remain extremely favorable out here.  Never underestimate the manufacturer's ability to figure out ways to keep selling to people in California, as there are plenty of AR's (legally sold without bullet buttons for the time being) to be had at fair prices out here.

what CA sporting rifles do you recommend ?
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2018, 10:21:04 PM
what CA sporting rifles do you recommend ?

Assuming you're referring to something in the 223/5/56 department.....

The best value neutered AR for us is probably the Smith & Wesson M&P15.  I have one, mostly just to have one, because the lack of a functional pistol grip sucks when trying to operate the damn thing.  I figure if SHTF I may have to do whatever it takes to make it function as designed, but best to have it on hand before then.

I also have a Kel-Tec SU16CA, which is more fun to shoot California legal.  It's about the same cost as the above and takes AR mags, but lighter and handier.  For the hell of it, I also bought a Troy pump action AR, so I'd have something to shoot all my ammo if semiauto gets banned at some point.  It's handy, accurate, and allows the use of the AR pistol grip and controls, but almost twice as expensive.  Both of these weapons have a folding stock, so they can be stored more inconspicuously.



However, most of my weapon investment goes into M1A rifles.  They're heavy and expensive, but in a comforting kind of way......
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: mountainmoma on September 30, 2018, 10:59:12 PM
Assuming you're referring to something in the 223/5/56 department.....

The best value neutered AR for us is probably the Smith & Wesson M&P15.  I have one, mostly just to have one, because the lack of a functional pistol grip sucks when trying to operate the damn thing.  I figure if SHTF I may have to do whatever it takes to make it function as designed, but best to have it on hand before then.

I also have a Kel-Tec SU16CA, which is more fun to shoot California legal.  It's about the same cost as the above and takes AR mags, but lighter and handier.  For the hell of it, I also bought a Troy pump action AR, so I'd have something to shoot all my ammo if semiauto gets banned at some point.  It's handy, accurate, and allows the use of the AR pistol grip and controls, but almost twice as expensive.  Both of these weapons have a folding stock, so they can be stored more inconspicuously.



However, most of my weapon investment goes into M1A rifles.  They're heavy and expensive, but in a comforting kind of way......

Yeah, I would love an M1A, but they are heavy....

SO, I just went and looked up the kel-tec, so it looks like a light weight version of a mini-14 ? I thought the whole point of these was light weight plus an adjustable stock for us short people ?   -- oh, I see, I looked at another site.  It folds and is so light weight with the folding it is easy to carry in a non-rifle bag....
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on September 30, 2018, 11:31:07 PM
If you can get past it's looks, there's a lot to like about those SU16's.  Very utilitarian little rifle.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: armymars on October 01, 2018, 10:30:07 AM
I have a Kel-Tec and like it. Right out of the box it shot about 2"/100 yrds. Just be careful not to loose the pin when you fold it up.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: mountainmoma on October 01, 2018, 11:07:21 AM
I have a Kel-Tec and like it. Right out of the box it shot about 2"/100 yrds. Just be careful not to loose the pin when you fold it up.

$770 plus 10% tax plus background check fees, etc... looking at right under $900.   I was hoping for affordable....  Maybe I should get more ammo for my other rifle and do some arm workouts -- just carry it around the house until it gets easy, listen to a TSP podcast while holding it in a standing shooting position, 2 minute reps and work up..... But I do like that this one and the pump action fold for discrete transport
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on October 01, 2018, 11:15:13 AM
I once ran into a guy who was a big time devotee of the Mini 14. As in he had several at our club. He was nice enough to letme try one. They work great but in his words "if you want them to deliver on accuracy exxpect a little aftermarket work." It shot fine but I already have an AR so I doubt I'm in the market.

Every Kel Tec I have ever shot has felt clunky and flimsy. I know guys who love them so it's just the opinion of some idiot on the internet but they're not my cup of tea.

Finding a non-AR sporting rifle is tough. Most of us choose the AR because it has great  ergonomics. But you get a lot more because it's so popular. The unfair advantage is that we are awash in aftermarket and customizable components.

If you want something light my top choice of a Springfield M1 is out. I know Saiga makes a CA version of the AK74. There are options.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on October 01, 2018, 12:03:47 PM
MM, that’s a high price.  Turners has SU16CA’s in stock for $640 and they have one store up in your area in Salinas.  It’s possible they could put it on sale for <$600 one of these weeks, too.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: mountainmoma on October 01, 2018, 12:51:08 PM
MM, that’s a high price.  Turners has SU16CA’s in stock for $640 and they have one store up in your area in Salinas.  It’s possible they could put it on sale for <$600 one of these weeks, too.

good to know, yes, Salinas is not too far to drive, I have never even heard of that store.  I do not know much about what is available in Monterey county and havent been to Salinas in decades.  But, it does make sense that they might have more shopping in this type of product
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Chemsoldier on October 01, 2018, 12:55:45 PM

I have 100% no evidence and I certainly know no one in the industry (not like I live across the river from Federal and live among the employees) but I fully believe the ammo shortages were because the feds bought it all up. After losing in the courts the grabbers went after ammo. Believe it or not the target of your guns is the ammo. Ask what doubling the price of 9mm does to your IDPA club. Amazingly in the late 00s you could get every hunting round but 9mm, .45, 5.56, and 7.62 went away. And none so bad as .22.

If I was in the government and I wanted to ban your guns I would try to make ammo hard to find. Not the one shot one kill expensive ammo. I'd target the ammo for beginners. I'd go after your "day at the range" ammo. And how many kids never got that first .22?

Again, I have no idea what I'm talking about and this is random speculation. I've certainly never spoken to an ammo employee and heard "we can't even stock .22 in the company store and we aren't sure where it's going but you won't see it for retail".


Bear in mind that industrial quantity ammo loading machines are adjustable to a degree, but rimfire is rimfire, the government categorically did not buy up the rimfire market.  Unpossible, did not happen.

Also, the procurement process is funky, it generates a paper trail and when it is not designed to do something it does not work well at all.  The normal ammo procurement process would have generated an easy to detect signature.  Outside normal process methods (such as government purchase cards) just don't work.  Combine that with the fact that those that procure ammo for the government tend to be gun freaks on the side anyway we would know about it.

The bottom line to me is that demand spiked, most ammo companies were scared of adding too many machines, floor space and employees and being caught out with extreme excess capacity.  Talking to people in the industry, the ammo companies added machines where is was logical for them (such as they already had unutilized space in a factory), utilized overtime but didn't want to add a lot of extra employees they would have to terminate when demand fell.  A few companies did take a chance and added a lot of capacity, and it paid off by and large (well, till 2017 at least).  Another place there was huge growth was in the remanufactured market.  They have taken a huge hit since then due to pancaking demand and QA/QC issues.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on October 01, 2018, 01:33:14 PM
good to know, yes, Salinas is not too far to drive, I have never even heard of that store.  I do not know much about what is available in Monterey county and havent been to Salinas in decades.  But, it does make sense that they might have more shopping in this type of product

Turners Outdoorsman is SoCal based and they’ve been opening up new stores like crazy in the last year.  I don’t bother looking anywhere else for guns, nobody else is doing the kind of volume it takes to offer deals. Ammo deals are few and far between, though.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on October 01, 2018, 02:43:50 PM
Mountainmama, your comments on weight and compactness make me wonder if a carbine might not be more ideal for you.  Something like a M1 carbine.  Not sure if a paratrooper would be legal there, but a standard stock one is about as non-aggressive looking as a military implement can be. 
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: scoop on October 01, 2018, 04:12:16 PM
Ok, maybe I should buy a modern sprting rifle, htey are light weight, adjustable, etc.... but maybe expensive ? Are there still components to put together ?  ANd, even if I do or dont buy a new one, I have some practice ammo, but what would be a good actual round for the mini-14, not just for practice ? And, how many rounds should one have...... My house is only so big.....

With that in mind, I really like the Ruger 9mm carbine, the PC.
It'll accept a Glock or Ruger 9mm magazine.

I know, it's a 9mm carbine, but it has its place.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Carl on October 01, 2018, 04:17:37 PM
With that in mind, I really like the Ruger 9mm carbine, the PC.
It'll accept a Glock or Ruger 9mm magazine.

I know, it's a 9mm carbine, but it has its place.

Lightweight,low recoil and noise...adequate with proper shot placement....good choice
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on October 01, 2018, 04:19:40 PM
With that in mind, I really like the Ruger 9mm carbine, the PC.
It'll accept a Glock or Ruger 9mm magazine.

I know, it's a 9mm carbine, but it has its place.

I haven’t shot mine yet, but I have high hopes. 

But, as I recall, MM already has a 9mm carbine.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on October 01, 2018, 04:30:49 PM
And the PC is 2 lbs heavier than the SU.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: mountainmoma on October 01, 2018, 06:04:31 PM
I haven’t shot mine yet, but I have high hopes. 

But, as I recall, MM already has a 9mm carbine.

yep. I realy like it too, it is a camp 9.  It can get a bit heavy to carry around and hold up, but no more noticeable recoil than the 10-22's with harder hitting.

 
Quote
Mountainmama, your comments on weight and compactness make me wonder if a carbine might not be more ideal for you.  Something like a M1 carbine.  Not sure if a paratrooper would be legal there, but a standard stock one is about as non-aggressive looking as a military implement can be.

We do like the classic, wood stock carbines around here.  I was wondering if I have been missing out in not having an adjustable, composite, light weight, easy to transport without a conspicuous rifle case, before they run out.  But, likely I have waited too long already.  I like the M1's .  But I am low on cash and already have a decent wood stock rifle or two -- maybe some day.  I have shot a .308 306 and 30-30 and they are fine if not too many rounds in a row.  I may be better with the .223, 9mm and .243 though if I have to do alot with it at once. 

More ammo it is. ( Unless the plumbing repair comes in low and the fall sales are realy good)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: mountainmoma on October 01, 2018, 06:20:33 PM
And the PC is 2 lbs heavier than the SU.

2 lbs is alot percentage wise, when you are small and not young any more
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on October 02, 2018, 07:26:19 PM
More ammo it is.

Good choice.  It is a lot easier than sneaking into Bermuda and "liberating" theirs.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on October 03, 2018, 08:37:43 AM
From Rural King this morning:

https://www.rkguns.com/ati-omni-hybrid-maxx-p3-m4-flat-top-223-5-56-semi-automatic-30rd-16-rifle-atigomx556p3.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-2018-10-03-apx-fde&utm_campaign=apx-fde&utm_content=email-img-241270001&_bta_tid=33208716675476410911416005482001144989386162258768234562497566724520040627853449488941945677676829198953 (https://www.rkguns.com/ati-omni-hybrid-maxx-p3-m4-flat-top-223-5-56-semi-automatic-30rd-16-rifle-atigomx556p3.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=email-2018-10-03-apx-fde&utm_campaign=apx-fde&utm_content=email-img-241270001&_bta_tid=33208716675476410911416005482001144989386162258768234562497566724520040627853449488941945677676829198953)

(http://ffb55a3eb2924fcc401d-2044d7580b9ff0ba662d0e2b6fd65b46.r14.cf5.rackcdn.com/2018/2018-10-03/img/20181003rkg_04.jpg)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on October 05, 2018, 06:39:53 PM
Never underestimate the manufacturer's ability to figure out ways to keep selling to people in California, as there are plenty of AR's (legally sold without bullet buttons for the time being) to be had at fair prices out here.

Now this kind of thing I don't really understand.........I've noticed that the high-dollar AR's frequently sell without the disabled pistol grip, so they look like the real deal, +/- the short 10-rd mag.  The catch is they have a fixed magazine that can't be dropped loose for reloading.  To reload, the upper is opened and the magazine is either toploaded in place or a new mag inserted.  I guess I can see why some would do it for the sake of appearances, but makes zero sense to me.  The bullet button was bad, and hard to reverse, this is worse and much less functional.

(https://www.turners.com/prodimages/15327-DEFAULT-s.jpg)

https://www.turners.com/lwrc-international/lwrc-ic-a5-556-nato-16-barrel-465904 (https://www.turners.com/lwrc-international/lwrc-ic-a5-556-nato-16-barrel-465904)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 09, 2018, 01:28:50 PM
Have you Californians looked at the Troy line of pump action AR pattern rifles?

https://worldoftroy.com/product-category/sporting-rifles/

It does seem like a cool compromise. You get the familiarity of a pump shotgun but all the ergos and attachments of an AR. I know it's not a real AR like the rest of us get but a pump gun can run quick and you can get a groovy folding stock. It's more gun than your politicians would want you to have. Not cheap, not ideal. But legal (as far as I know).
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 09, 2018, 02:12:45 PM
Have you Californians looked at the Troy line of pump action AR pattern rifles?

https://worldoftroy.com/product-category/sporting-rifles/

It does seem like a cool compromise. You get the familiarity of a pump shotgun but all the ergos and attachments of an AR. I know it's not a real AR like the rest of us get but a pump gun can run quick and you can get a groovy folding stock. It's more gun than your politicians would want you to have. Not cheap, not ideal. But legal (as far as I know).



I also have a Kel-Tec SU16CA, which is more fun to shoot California legal.  It's about the same cost as the above and takes AR mags, but lighter and handier.  For the hell of it, I also bought a Troy pump action AR, so I'd have something to shoot all my ammo if semiauto gets banned at some point.  It's handy, accurate, and allows the use of the AR pistol grip and controls, but almost twice as expensive.  Both of these weapons have a folding stock, so they can be stored more inconspicuously.


With this latest shooting and Gavin Newsom as Governor, I think California faces a real threat of a ban on sale of semiautomatic weapons. Gray Davis vetoed gun legislation Newsom thought didn’t go far enough.

Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 10, 2018, 03:23:53 PM



With this latest shooting and Gavin Newsom as Governor, I think California faces a real threat of a ban on sale of semiautomatic weapons. Gray Davis vetoed gun legislation Newsom thought didn’t go far enough.

 :facepalm: Missed that post. Just trying to pass on what I find.

Yeah, there's a lot of goofy thoughts when I talk to "non-gun" people. It's more cosmetics than function in my experience. My riot pump shotgun leads the pack of "most evil" though my Mosin Nagant has a bayonet (why is that scary?) and my AR is well an AR.

At some point you throw the hands up and realize there is no reality. My pump 12 is "deadlier" than my semi 12 skeet gun but both are outclassed by my AR because of capacity although my Mosin has a bayonet. And the gun I'd pick to be my one gun is a .308 bolt that looks innocent.

It's a mess. Banning 1870s technology seems like a dumb idea but...
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 11, 2018, 12:27:55 AM
If I ever see one of the .308 Troy pumps down here I’ll probably buy one, too.  For whatever reason they don’t stock many down here.  People would rather buy a severely hobbled AR like the one I linked to a couple posts up.  Like with the gun banners, appearance means more than function, apparently.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on November 11, 2018, 06:37:11 AM
People would rather buy a severely hobbled AR like the one I linked to a couple posts up.  Like with the gun banners, appearance means more than function, apparently.

At our Appleseed KD shoot yesterday, one of the instructors requalified with a bolt action 223 scoring 49/50. Proves the point that it isnt the rifle that makes the rifleman. My hope is that the law craziness in California, Washington, etc encourages people in these states to learn and practice more.  It would be great to regularly see shoots of 100 plus people on the line to send a message that people wont be deterred from exercising their right.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on November 11, 2018, 08:09:18 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/democrats-plan-to-pursue-most-aggressive-gun-control-legislation-in-decades-1541791440 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/democrats-plan-to-pursue-most-aggressive-gun-control-legislation-in-decades-1541791440)

Sorry not to have a paywall-free version, but the headline and sub-title pretty much tell the story:
Quote
Democrats Plan to Pursue Most Aggressive Gun-Control Legislation in Decades
Focus spurred by an incoming class of lawmakers with ‘F’ NRA ratings who campaigned on the issue

As the label on this thread says: "The Window is about to CLOSE.  Get your guns and ammo NOW."  Yes, the Senate might block the House anti-gun bills, and the president might veto them as well.  But, well, you know.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: The Professor on November 11, 2018, 08:46:27 PM
Just wanted to hop back into the thread post-election for some suggestions.

Well, I'm considering the window to be closing at this point.  With what's been happening and with the Democrats taking the House of Representatives, I'm going to suggest that we're going to see gun and ammo prices starting to climb.

Politicians are already starting to ring the Gun Ban Bell, but I doubt that any legislation will make it to the President's desk intact.  This is not, however, the deciding factor.  What concerns me is the perception by gun buyers that the future is being threatened. 

I don't foresee a major spike in prices, though, for at least another year.  What I think will happen is that Trump's hold on the White House will look more and more tenuous starting in late 2019.  That's when I expect to see the beginnings of concern in the gun-buying crowd start to manifest itself.  The conservatives will start to pound on the anti-gun issue when the liberals come out with the Presidential Candidate Line-ups.  I do expect the candidates on the lib side to be more openly anti-gun, though.  Many of the current names being bandied about are vehemently anti-gun.

Look for a major push in the 18-24 crowd for anti-gun agendas, especially if (when?) we have more school shootings in the next year or so.  I haven't seen the post-election breakdown of voter penetration in age groups or other demographics, yet, but I'm expecting to see close to record numbers in how many voted.

Again, I'm not saying any anti-gun legislation will succeed except, perhaps, on the State level. . .especially in California, Oregon and Washington.

My suggestion stays the same:  Get them while you can before the prices increase and stock starts to dwindle.

The Professor
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: CarbideAndIron on November 12, 2018, 05:33:52 AM
And for all of us here in WA, if you've been looking to upgrade your safe, do it before the new authoritarian legislation kicks in.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: cmxterra on November 12, 2018, 06:30:14 PM
For me, I have been stocking up on subsonic ammo in the .22, .308 and 300BLK  I see those as being in short supply on a regular day. In most cases if S really does HTF that being as quiet as you can will be a bonus.


And yes.. I have a can.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on November 13, 2018, 08:11:50 PM
Another story, similar to the one from the WSJ:
https://www.apnews.com/0dcf52423856469fb57756324130b86e (https://www.apnews.com/0dcf52423856469fb57756324130b86e)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 15, 2018, 10:47:40 PM
Fellow Californians, check out these upcoming specials from Turner's:  https://www.turners.com/info/p1cb9nmx8-1 (https://www.turners.com/info/p1cb9nmx8-1)

$500 for an M&P15 Sport II is a better deal than what I paid last year.  I'm tempted to get another one.

Also, those rebate offers on ammo are at least as good as the sale prices I paid for the same brands at BulkAmmo.com a year ago.  Remember, we've got about 6 weeks before all ammo sales in the state will require a background check.  And nobody knows how the hell that's going to work, or how much it will cost.  Might as well stock up now
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 16, 2018, 10:15:39 AM
Interesting vid about the top 5 CA compliant guns at Shot Show 2018. Quality is um... but the 5 guns actually interest me. The LiteFight(?) was actually something I might look into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE6h246-mlA

And of course I'm in love with Colt's new revolver. I'm a gunslut.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 16, 2018, 01:15:04 PM
Besides the Colt, I haven’t seen any of those guns down here. Although the Thordsen stocks shown on one of the AR options is quite popular for people retrofitting existing ARs to avoid registration. I did buy a Ruger GP100 in 10mm a couple months ago, but didn’t know about a Red Hawk in that caliber. 
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 16, 2018, 04:46:40 PM
Fellow Californians, check out these upcoming specials from Turner's:  https://www.turners.com/info/p1cb9nmx8-1 (https://www.turners.com/info/p1cb9nmx8-1)

$500 for an M&P15 Sport II is a better deal than what I paid last year.  I'm tempted to get another one.

Also, those rebate offers on ammo are at least as good as the sale prices I paid for the same brands at BulkAmmo.com a year ago.  Remember, we've got about 6 weeks before all ammo sales in the state will require a background check.  And nobody knows how the hell that's going to work, or how much it will cost.  Might as well stock up now

Better hurry on the ammo, California, the inventory won’t last thru Black Friday.  I went and maxed out the rebate on the Blazer Brass 9mm and decided that even without a rebate the sale price on the Federal .223 was competitive with what I paid for my current inventory, so picked up some of that as well.

They also confirmed that they have no idea how ammo sales will work when background checks start in January.  The state doesn’t have a plan in place and everyone is flying blind.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 16, 2018, 05:22:44 PM
Better hurry on the ammo, California, the inventory won’t last thru Black Friday.  I went and maxed out the rebate on the Blazer Brass 9mm and decided that even without a rebate the sale price on the Federal .223 was competitive with what I paid for my current inventory, so picked up some of that as well.

They also confirmed that they have no idea how ammo sales will work when background checks start in January.  The state doesn’t have a plan in place and everyone is flying blind.

Without being a jerk what (to a 4th grader like me) are the ammo laws going into effect? I realize CA residents are in an odd jam (I have family out there) but here they're giving away 5.56. My Fleet Farm is only a few miles from Federal's Anoka plant but I have on good authority from friends who work at both there is no weird deal. But between Federal and Winchester if you want cheap 55 grain ball I have recently seen it under $6/20. I know that's not a screaming deal to bulk buyers but it's far from a bad deal. I don't balk at those prices.

I'm seeing shortages on hunting rounds but it's that time of the year. I don't hunt but I might have to go get a tag so my brother in law can get more venison. Just the way the world works up here.

I don't know if it would help but the rumor is that some of the ammo companies are going to try to go straight to consumer with oddball rounds. I kvetched to a Federal employee that Cabelas only had Hornady in .338 Lapua and she told me this might be a change. Basically your sporting goods store wants to stock the big sellers and get the odd stuff off the shelves. If you think about supply chain it makes sense. If I'm Hornady I'm going to send 1 case of 6.5 Norma to a sporting goods store where it sits in inventory for 17 years? Both parties would logistically rather send 258 cases of 9mm and have it fly. So maybe there's an out for CA if the direct to consumer for "hunting rounds" comes about.

I'm also always interested in the three letters that evade almost all laws: LLC. You never know what that can do.

I'm personally interested because my .308 round is a Federal medium game round. If you do the ballistic tables it's awesome. It's a good long range round that they won't claim is an ideal self defense round. It's hard to find even here and my contacts can't get it for me easily. Cabelas had 1 box. Once off the beaten path it can be hard to find so I don't doubt ammo companies want to do direct to consumer. The .22, 5.56, .308, etc. are currency in my opinion. Leave a box at my gun club and it's gone. The Normas, Grendals, Lapuas, etc. play a different game.

I'm trying to help but feel I'm once again rambling...
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 16, 2018, 05:36:10 PM
No online sales of ammo are allowed since 1/1/18, unless it’s shipped to an FFL who collects CA sales tax and whatever fee they think they can get away with.  Starting 1/1/19 all ammo sales require a background check, just like buying a firearm.  Problem is DOJ has no clear plan in place on how all that will be done.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 16, 2018, 06:57:58 PM
No online sales of ammo are allowed since 1/1/18, unless it’s shipped to an FFL who collects CA sales tax and whatever fee they think they can get away with.  Starting 1/1/19 all ammo sales require a background check, just like buying a firearm.  Problem is DOJ has no clear plan in place on how all that will be done.

Does that include B2B sales? Gonna sound dumb but I use my LLC to have lumber delivered that is only offered B2B. You might have an opportunity to be exempted with the right NRA certification.

What I'm always looking for is the stupid that infests rules. Governments are generally stupid. Getting a concealed carry here means it's technically legal to walk down Hennepin Ave juggling 7 loaded revolvers (don't do it).

What I'm trying to get at is that there is always a loophole. Either you aren't an "end user" or you are simply "value added" or you are a charity (THAT"S A BIG ONE).

You need the legal mindset... LA SWAT has full auto ARs and somebody trains them and somebody supplies them and are all those people carded? Of course not. Neither are the military bases in the state. Why does the federal government supercede state law? Why does city government? If you volunteer with the sheriff do your rights change?

I need to dig deeper. Honestly CA gun rights aren't top of my list right now. But, in general, laws are written by the stupidest people who have no idea what they are doing and don't understand the industry they police. I'll keep looking for an out.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on November 16, 2018, 08:05:58 PM
Honestly CA gun rights aren't top of my list right now. But, in general, laws are written by the stupidest people who have no idea what they are doing and don't understand the industry they police. I'll keep looking for an out.

Well, we apparently are all getting a crash course in California gun law stupid.  Twitter is all abuzz because Californian Representatative Eric Swawell is calling for confiscation of firearms across the country.  He wants any community that refuses to comply to be nuked.   He is getting brutalized by comments from members of the military right now and is in a tactical retreat.  But it is a clear indication of the rhetoric we are going to be facing over the next several months.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on November 16, 2018, 08:57:31 PM
Things seem to be escalating, a little:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/05/03/ban-assault-weapons-buy-them-back-prosecute-offenders-column/570590002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/05/03/ban-assault-weapons-buy-them-back-prosecute-offenders-column/570590002/)

Don't want to turn them in?  Following up on I4L's post, well they've got a plan.  Here's the ensuing twitter-spatter:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/16/eric-swalwell-if-gun-owners-defy-assault-weapons-ban-the-government-has-nukes/ (https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/16/eric-swalwell-if-gun-owners-defy-assault-weapons-ban-the-government-has-nukes/)

The rhetoric is really heating up.  True, a D-CA congressman spouting off on USA Today and twitter is not the same as having something signed into law, but lunatics almost always talk about the crimes they're contemplating before actually committing them.  The things Swalwell "jokes" about in that twitter exchange have no place in domestic discourse, and at some level must be taken as actual threats.  At the very least, they reveal the mindset we're dealing with here.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 16, 2018, 09:34:28 PM
Swalwell, Pelosi, Kamala Harris, Gavin Newsom (incoming Gov) are all stereotypical Bay Area antigun liberals, most of whom are going to run for President in 2020.  There aren't enough of us out here in the hinterlands to overcome the urban vote in LA and SF that keeps these guys in office.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 16, 2018, 10:03:56 PM
What I'm trying to get at is that there is always a loophole.

Well, it's true that time after time the firearms industry in this country leverage the loopholes around CA legislation so they can keep selling us stuff.  Capitalism tends to find a way, but it usually requires an FFL, lawyers, and paperwork, which is all fine and good if you're looking to make a profit.  For some of us it's just simpler to invest the money now into what I'll need in advance.

I've read some articles on what Hollywood has to go through to stay on the straight and narrow when making movies, and it's nuts.  With all the actors with criminal convictions they have to make sure none of them ever touch a real gun and the paperwork and due diligence is a total nightmare.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 17, 2018, 08:23:38 AM
I got some mostly exotics (wood) shipped to me from Rockler. They came with the sticker "this product is known in the state of CA to cause cancer". OK, I'm not advocating huffing padauk dust. But I mean every board had the sticker. Even the maple.

We talk about guns but in all honesty CA is one lever flip from banning wood. Probably all food too. Heaven forbid Gavin Newsome discovers how dangerous electricity can be.

I have a family member in Hollywood. It's insane. One actor can't touch a gun and the other shows up with his carry pistol. Then the armorer and stuntman argue about safety while the AP and DP worry about kids running on set during the pyrotechnics.

Back to the theme here I was stunned to see Cabelas/Bass Pro send me a catalog yesterday that included a Glock 19 "on sale" for $575. I'm not in the market for a Glock but that seems a little high. I bought my M&P a few years back and I negotiated between 2 gun shops but I don't think I went over $500. We might be in a situation where a Glock is more than an AR. Weird.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on November 17, 2018, 09:18:39 AM
Well Politician Swawell's rhetoric inspired me...to get another firearm that is.  I have wanted a 308 battle rifle in scout configuration ever since one of the appleseed master instructors let me shoot his on an AQT a decade back.  This just landed in my inbox so thought "Let's do it."  It will be dubbed Nuke'm.

(http://ffb55a3eb2924fcc401d-2044d7580b9ff0ba662d0e2b6fd65b46.r14.cf5.rackcdn.com/2018/2018-11-17/img/20181117rkg_04.jpg)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 17, 2018, 09:32:12 AM
Well Politician Swawell's rhetoric inspired me...to get another firearm that is.  I have wanted a 308 battle rifle in scout configuration ever since one of the appleseed master instructors let me shoot his on an AQT a decade back.  This just landed in my inbox so thought "Let's do it."  It will be dubbed Nuke'm.

(http://ffb55a3eb2924fcc401d-2044d7580b9ff0ba662d0e2b6fd65b46.r14.cf5.rackcdn.com/2018/2018-11-17/img/20181117rkg_04.jpg)

I do not think you will be disappointed. That's been on my bucket list a while. That very rifle. If I wasn't agonizing on the optic for my .338 it would be a very tempting purchase.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on November 17, 2018, 09:44:54 AM
And at that price, whew.  With the confluence of a possibly closing window and deals like these, it is time to get on it and spend some money.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on November 17, 2018, 10:24:19 AM
And at that price, whew.  With the confluence of a possibly closing window and deals like these, it is time to get on it and spend some money.

Crazy, right?  Funny thing I just got an extended eye-relief scope in part of trade.  So with all that and the above deal hitting the inbox, i took it as a sign of divine intervention. :)

Several others are on sale too.

(http://ffb55a3eb2924fcc401d-2044d7580b9ff0ba662d0e2b6fd65b46.r14.cf5.rackcdn.com/2018/2018-11-17/img/20181117rkg_03.jpg)
(http://ffb55a3eb2924fcc401d-2044d7580b9ff0ba662d0e2b6fd65b46.r14.cf5.rackcdn.com/2018/2018-11-17/img/20181117rkg_05.jpg)
(http://ffb55a3eb2924fcc401d-2044d7580b9ff0ba662d0e2b6fd65b46.r14.cf5.rackcdn.com/2018/2018-11-17/img/20181117rkg_06.jpg)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on November 17, 2018, 10:33:24 AM
So with all that and the above deal hitting the inbox, i took it as a sign of divine intervention. :)
"But Honey!  <deity of choice> told me to buy this!"  What spouse could possibly argue with that logic?  There could be lightning bolts in store.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on November 17, 2018, 11:24:30 AM
"But Honey!  <deity of choice> told me to buy this!"  What spouse could possibly argue with that logic?  There could be lightning bolts in store.

She is from midwest so she fully understands. :)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tUGo2qMYDn0/TYF2wx0gYZI/AAAAAAAAAGk/uOc0tz4rXvg/s1600/BluesBrothers.jpg)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 17, 2018, 12:04:51 PM
Those are mighty fine deals on the M1A!  Get em while they’re hot. Unfortunately for me, since those have the evil flash hiders instead of muzzle brakes, they aren’t CA legal.

Best deal in my collection has been $1300 and I just plunked down $1600 for that Loaded yesterday, but without the stainless barrel, and thought I’d saved myself a couple hundred. 
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 17, 2018, 01:18:35 PM
I shot one of those M1As at a gun show up here. We have an annual "try before you buy" show and it's a little bit of a whirlwind because you basically shoot 200 guns and talk to reps all day. But when else do you get to shoot an H&K Mk 23?

I don't recall the model type but I really liked that Springfield. I want the scout the most because I like the scout setup but that's a personal preference. It's also a titch of a heavy gun but not enough to bother me. And it makes recoil almost nothing.

I can't believe the state of CA thinks an AR 10 should be illegal but an M1A is OK with the correct features. Given the choice I'd buy the M1A every time. In fact the hard part would be a fixed 4 power scout scope or a 1-6x designated marksman scope. But that's how I like a .308. You could just as easily build it out for longer range or more  accurate hunting.

I mean, the one ding against the M14 is that it sucks in full auto. So the civilian version is basically everything good about the rifle? Um, yes please.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: cmxterra on November 17, 2018, 01:28:40 PM
Who is selling the M1A at that price??
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on November 17, 2018, 02:19:38 PM
I don't recall the model type but I really liked that Springfield. I want the scout the most because I like the scout setup but that's a personal preference. It's also a titch of a heavy gun but not enough to bother me. And it makes recoil almost nothing.

I'm still partial to the SOCOM length, myself, probably because that's where I started, but the Scout/Squad is a close second, and both have that sweet bit of forward rail for a red dot or scout scope.  The bigger aperture on the rear of the SOCOM makes for quicker shots with irons, though, plus a bit less felt recoil and muzzle rise than the other two lengths, thanks to its brake.  But lots of boom and fire, plus they tend to sell for the price of a Loaded.  While the SOCOMs only come synthetic, in retrospect I wish I'd paid extra for wood stocks on all my other lengths. 

One of these days I'm going to take the fugly heavy cluster rail off my SOCOM II and give it the full wood treatment, like this little beauty.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/a5/33/60a533293b81a192658aa5412b82a15a.jpg)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on November 17, 2018, 02:40:16 PM
Who is selling the M1A at that price??

Rural King aka RKGuns. https://www.rkguns.com (https://www.rkguns.com)

Since I have several local I dont have to pay a transfer fee, just $12.99 delivery and sales tax.  The total for the M1A Scout Squad came to $1,189.97 out the door.

Oh, did I mention a couple weeks ago they dived into military surplus too?
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 17, 2018, 03:10:59 PM
Springfield had a goofy phase they're kinda still in trying to make an M14 compete with the AR market. Unfortunately that coincided with the era where everything got a clunky rail and you put a coffee grinder on the side. If you've never seen "the most tactical AR ever" (some cursing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q362H-xg0ZA

If you look at the M14 in actual use from 1959 to today you see most actual users in police and military strip it down pretty far. She's sensitive about her weight already. Seems they've come around since then.

I must confess though I love wood I prefer plastic stocks. Wood is great but it moves a little seasonally and since I go from -40 to 110 plastic wins the day. In all honesty if Springfield and Savage could get together and launch an M1A with a Savage accustock and accutrigger (I don't know how that would work) it might be a real winner. But competitors rarely see these synergies. Who would want a lightweight mag fed semi-auto .308 with a 3 lb. trigger?
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: The Professor on November 17, 2018, 07:03:52 PM
Things seem to be escalating, a little:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/05/03/ban-assault-weapons-buy-them-back-prosecute-offenders-column/570590002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/05/03/ban-assault-weapons-buy-them-back-prosecute-offenders-column/570590002/)

Don't want to turn them in?  Following up on I4L's post, well they've got a plan.  Here's the ensuing twitter-spatter:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/16/eric-swalwell-if-gun-owners-defy-assault-weapons-ban-the-government-has-nukes/ (https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/16/eric-swalwell-if-gun-owners-defy-assault-weapons-ban-the-government-has-nukes/)

The rhetoric is really heating up.  True, a D-CA congressman spouting off on USA Today and twitter is not the same as having something signed into law, but lunatics almost always talk about the crimes they're contemplating before actually committing them.  The things Swalwell "jokes" about in that twitter exchange have no place in domestic discourse, and at some level must be taken as actual threats.  At the very least, they reveal the mindset we're dealing with here.

I truly expect the rhetoric to start pumping out very soon.  The NRA is in a questionable financial position, allegedly.  I think we'll start to see the mailers coming in sometime in the next two weeks where the above topics will be screamed from the rooftops.  Expect to see something on par with the early-90's "JackBooted Thugs" ads.

Again, there are other factors to consider, especially in the not-too-distant future.  The first, of course, is the perception of relatively uninformed potential buyers resulting from the above-mentioned rhetoric.  Everytime there's  been a scare in the past, Johnny Average Conservative leverages his house and paycheck to snag on a couple of AR's ". . .before the ban."  This causes shortages.  Inevitably, they buy too late and at inflated prices. . .you usually see the same guys at gunshows a few months later trying to sell those same guns because they overextended themselves.

Additionally, consider the very real possibility of the military going away from the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 rounds.  One of the reasons that there's comparatively inexpensive ammo in those two calibers is that they are military rounds and the companies can charge less because it's cheaper to make extra rounds when they've filled their gubmint purchase orders.  Yes, those two, in addition to a few other calibers, are the primary calibers of most MSR's (a term I apply to most military-style semi-autos), but the shooting public does not go through enough ammo to support that same high-volume production which reduce the prices.

Also, most of the proposed legislation should not make it through both houses intact.  In fact, I truly do not expect to see anything real coming through on the federal level for the next two years.  Unlike the author of the first article, I really don't see Trump signing any federal bans or severely restrictive legislation, even if he does get re-elected.  HOWEVER, on the state level?  We're already seeing the additional restrictions and taxes in several states, e.g., Kalifornia.  I don't expect to see the NRA doing much at the state level, either.  They have a proven track record of begging for money and loosening the purse strings only occasionally for the state fights.  IMNSHO, they should have emptied the bank back during the Colorado magazine ban and supporting pro-2A candidates inside the state.  That would have sent a very clear message to the anti's as well as members and potential members.  (Sorry NRA-supporters, the truth hurts.  Seems they prefer their $5k suits and $100k personal vehicles as well as twice-annual hunting trips down to South America and elsewhere.)

We've seen an involuntary purge of gun manufacturers as well as a consolidation of many of the still-existing manufacturers being purchased and questionably run by a small number of investors (e.g. American Outdoor, Cerberus Capital Management, Kahr Firearms, et al).  This has led to major shake-ups in the industry in quality control, management, etc.  The state of the industry is (and this is my personal opinion) the shakiest it's ever been.  One good thing that happened when the second panic of the last administration happened was that we found out that a lot of smaller manufacturers popped up to fill the void.  One of the reasons the previous panic was so devastating ($3,000 base AR's, $30 aluminum AR mags, no spare parts to be found, etc.) was that no one was prepared.  While we did see a spike in prices, it was short-lived until every Swinging Richard with a CNC machine started churning out lowers and uppers.  Sadly, it was also during this point that the main manufacturers and distributors had their stocks emptied and dealers couldn't buy anything to put on their shelves.  This led to the demise of many smaller FFL's who weren't in the position to ride out the interruption.

I don't know what will happen this time.  The liberals seem very confident and motivated to drive their agenda forward despite the questionable possibility of success.  I truly am concerned about the will happen following November 2020.  So much so that I'm considering shifting much of my near-future investments into firearms and especially AR lowers, uppers, and parts kits.

I hope I'm wrong, but the great thing is that you seldom lose money on guns.

The Professor
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on November 18, 2018, 07:21:42 AM
This is going to sell a lot of guns...

(https://grrrgraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/swalwell_nuke_cartoon.jpg)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on November 25, 2018, 10:46:46 AM
The great Bob Murphy made an excellent point on this. Nobody thinks they can take on the military with their rifle or shotgun. But on the same token we don't let inmates in prison have steak knives. So  there's some middle ground. Comedian Dave Smith replied about how inconceivable it is that there are Jews in America who don't own a gun. And if you think it wouldn't have stopped the Wermacht just look what a few Afghani villagers can do.

I'm happy to live where everyone is armed to the hilt. The American Midwest is  the largest non-standing army in the world. I encourage everyone to own a gun. Don't know where to start buy a shotgun. Take a class. Get your permits in order. Everyone enjoys a day shooting trap or skeet. Even our first day where we hit 2.

Remember the good old days when we could... These are them. The market is flooded with AR type rifles and prices have never been lower. Ammo companies are going bankrupt. Unsure of the future? Buy your kids lowers for Christmas. I gave my daughter a lower for her second birthday and I can't wait to build the gun with her (when old enough). For less than you'll spend on plastic crap you can give the gift of gun rights.

Now is the time. Prices are low and legislators are thinking (in the limited way those people can). Get armed. If not for fun for civic duty. You reside in a country formed by men who rode at night screaming "the British are coming!"
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: LvsChant on November 26, 2018, 09:48:05 PM
Great post, David in MN. +1
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on December 17, 2018, 10:04:11 AM
Twenty-two hit piece articles in my newsfeed today like the one below.  Primarily they are going after the small manufacturers and gunsmiths with a "blood money/blood sport" angle and trying to cut off access to banks and payment processers.  They are especially going after the 308 and 6.5 Creedmore caliber rifles as the new menance more deadly than the military assault rifles used by the military (sic). Loads of misinfo just like the attacks on NRA and gun clubs.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1OG1BZ (https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1OG1BZ)

Small assault-style rifle firms thriving under activists' radar
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: The Professor on January 10, 2019, 07:28:45 PM
LAST CALL, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!

Now that the socialist liberals are sworn in, they are starting to put their agenda forward.

A MASSIVE "Assault Weapons" Ban has now been proposed by Feinstein that has learned from the 1994 ban and California bans and specifically closes pretty much every "loophole" and workaround that has arisen.

Will it go through?  Unknown.  I have given up making such predictions on political issues.  It doesn't matter, however, for what I do predict:

The only question I have is the timeline of this.  Many conservatives still have faith in the belief that Trump will not sign a Gun Ban into law.  Personally, I don't think he will.  (As an aside, I think he authorized the Bump Stock Ban just to make sure there would be a lawsuit that would solve the issue.  I can't see any legal reason that a Bump Stock makes a weapon fully automatic.  For that, they'd have to completely rewrite the 1934 NFA which explicitly defines what makes full auto.)

What we are going to see is a panic among the gun-buying crowd.  We've seen, time and again, that the NRA will do nothing to stop an AWB.  In fact, such a ban actually INCREASES their profitability.  Look at how membership increased after the 1994 ban and the mere suggestions that the previous President would ban military-style rifles.  I remember very vividly watching a friend of mine who owned the largest gun dealership in my area sit and cry when Obama was re-elected.  He was so afraid that, since Obama was now a second-term president he would no longer have to worry about re-election and would come down on guns.  He was so afraid that he sold his business within two months of the election and moved to the nether-regions of Idaho.

I remember those two months very clearly.  That was when base, cheap AR's were going for over $3k.  Full capacity magazines couldn't be found.  Parts kits were being snapped up faster than they could be made.

Why?  Panic.  It doesn't have to be logical and it doesn't even have to be real.

Prices are going to start rising, soon, on everything from stripped lowers and Lower Parts Kits to already assembled firearms.  Ammo may start disappearing soon, too. 

This is just the earliest part of the problem.  Remember that Trump faces re-election soon.  There's no real promise that he'll be re-elected.  I don't know who the liberals can put forward as a candidate that's more palatable to his supporters than he is but. . .

Remember that the liberals want to do away with the Electoral College.  That requires one of three methods.   The first is a Congressional Convention.  If this happens, ANYTHING in the Constitution can be changed. . .even the Second Amendment.  The second is that three-quarters of the States ratify the Amendment as it is send to them by the Archivist of the United States, who heads the National Archives and Records Administration.  The third method is a 2/3rds vote of both the Senate and the House of Representatives.

Since the Office of the President does not have a role in the amendment process, as outlined by Article V of the Constitution, a President has no say in the process and has neither veto nor approval power. 

While I don't personally see any of these three options as currently viable, my opinion doesn't matter.  It's how the gun-owner-on-the-street feels.

The window, in my humble opinion, is now closed. 

The Professor
(Interesting times, indeed.)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: surfivor on January 11, 2019, 02:06:54 AM
Quote
I don't know what will happen this time.  The liberals seem very confident and motivated to drive their agenda forward despite the questionable possibility of success.  I truly am concerned about the will happen following November 2020.  So much so that I'm considering shifting much of my near-future investments into firearms and especially AR lowers, uppers, and parts kits.

The mass shootings have had their effect. I believe strongly in the civic aspect of self defense. I can’t argue about many political issues but it seems clear where the true danger is. I can’t argue with people on conspiracies either, not just on here but in general but I believe many do exist. I have come to the point at times when I realize I am not going to engage people in certain debates yet I still have pretty strong opinions

This is going to sell a lot of guns...

(https://grrrgraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/swalwell_nuke_cartoon.jpg)

That’s funny because it has always been the basis of my argument for years that if the government can have nukes why can’t citizens have guns and this guy has proved the point I guess more strongly than ever
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Alan Georges on January 11, 2019, 06:58:09 PM
LAST CALL, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!
Yes it is.  And yet... ammo prices are still low.  The herd hasn't made a run for the door.  Now is the time to top off supplies.

Quote
(Interesting times, indeed.)
Yep.  If you have even an inkling that you're a little low on something, get that order in now.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: The Professor on January 14, 2019, 04:10:11 PM
And. . ..  SLAM!!

There it goes.


https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article202733214.html (https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article202733214.html)

"Donald Trump says he’s open to Dianne Feinstein’s assault weapons age limit – or even a ban."

The Professor
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Smurf Hunter on January 15, 2019, 09:11:37 AM
And. . ..  SLAM!!

There it goes.


https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article202733214.html (https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article202733214.html)

"Donald Trump says he’s open to Dianne Feinstein’s assault weapons age limit – or even a ban."

The Professor

We're running the pilot version of that program up here in WA.  As of Jan. 1 you must be 21 to buy any semi-auto rifle.  As of July (19?) all semi-auto rifles are to become "assault weapons".
Thereafter new purchases of "assault weapons" have additional background check scrutiny, taxes and are subject to additional inspection at the discretion of local law enforcement.

To say there is legal gray area is a massive understatement. Most people with a clue expect all sorts of legal challenges.

Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Carver on January 15, 2019, 01:07:19 PM

"Donald Trump says he’s open to Dianne Feinstein’s assault weapons age limit – or even a ban."

The Professor

Trump often uses this 'caving' technique when he deals with an issue. We don't know for sure if he is caving or deal-making until it is said and done.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Bradbn4 on January 16, 2019, 10:03:15 PM
Price check says PSA has a fully assembled upper + bg, and charging handle + backup sites for under 300 dollars.  The fact that it is free floated is a nice bonus.  They are also selling their version of MagPul's small part kit for 90 dollars.  So under 400 dollars you get everything but the lower receiver and magazines.  The price go's up a bit if you are one of the states that the company charges taxes for.

psa=Palmetto State Armory

I don't think the price will go lower, so it just might be the perfect time to buy.

I spotted online Wolf 223 ammo the cheap steel case stuff for under 25 cents a round.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: CarbideAndIron on January 17, 2019, 07:53:24 AM
For sure, even if someone wants to argue that the window is not closing, prices are so good right now. No reason not to have ample supply of battle rifle related stuff.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on January 17, 2019, 12:12:26 PM
Put in my order for a Savage 10 GRS in 6.5 Creedmoor. But I have a disorder...

https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/long-range/10-grs
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Smurf Hunter on January 21, 2019, 10:43:20 AM
I shared with some others privately that I recently suffered an injury involving handloaded ammunition.  I don't share this to digress into the details of my incident.  Just know it involved a VERY dense pistol powder, with a tighter than needed crimp, in a super light weight pocket revolver.  Perhaps a perfect storm of less than ideal circumstances.

My wife is sympathetic as my blown apart left thumb recovers, however she's REALLY down on the hand loading hobby now.  (I just realized the pun in "hand load" since my "hand" was injured, but I digress)

I experienced the 2012 panic as most had, and vowed to not get caught by surprise again.  In addition to accumulating commercial cartridges when good values were found, I also began accumulating components.  Nothing crazy, but a few thousand primers of each type, enough smokeless powder to match, and about enough projectiles for 1/4.  The reason I went lighter on the bullets, is they have no hazmat restrictions for shipping and thus are logistically simpler to acquire.  I really thought of it like "I have $1000, what's the wisest investment I can make to have the greatest ammo supply long term?"

Again, I've got enough components to to load up an infantry squad with .223. 

I suppose I can lay low for a while.  Maybe just break out a brick of .22lr and take it from square one with my wife. I really do not prefer cases of military ammo.  I think my stuff shoots a little better. When a person says they prefer the M885 NATO 62gr green tips, I think they aren't any kind of serious marksman.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: machinisttx on January 21, 2019, 05:37:58 PM
Anyone shooting mil surp ammo isn't trying for the tightest groups in the world. I have quite a bit of it in 8mm mauser and 7.62x54r. I don't expect it to drive tacks...I expect it to go bang and shoot groups small enough to hit man sized targets at reasonable distances. If I had or used a .223/5.56 and M193 or M855 I wouldn't be expecting anything more than that either....and I don't know anyone that would.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Stwood on January 21, 2019, 06:14:05 PM
Anyone shooting mil surp ammo isn't trying for the tightest groups in the world. I have quite a bit of it in 8mm mauser and 7.62x54r. I don't expect it to drive tacks...I expect it to go bang and shoot groups small enough to hit man sized targets at reasonable distances. If I had or used a .223/5.56 and M193 or M855 I wouldn't be expecting anything more than that either....and I don't know anyone that would.

10-4 on not driving tacks. I have a lot of mil surp 30.06 and just want it to hit the object in question.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Smurf Hunter on January 22, 2019, 09:18:42 AM
Would you rather have 1000 rounds that were accurate to "minute of barn door" or 250 that were tuned to make nickel sized groups at distance?

Maybe it's like food preps.  If you're starving you'd rather have a case of ramen than a single gourmet meal.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Stwood on January 22, 2019, 10:42:13 AM
Would you rather have 1000 rounds that were accurate to "minute of barn door" or 250 that were tuned to make nickel sized groups at distance?

Maybe it's like food preps.  If you're starving you'd rather have a case of ramen than a single gourmet meal.

Probably the ramen. It will most likely last longer.  :D
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on January 22, 2019, 12:06:50 PM
Sorry to hear about the injury, Smurf Hunter.  i recently witnessed a handgun self destruct at the range.  Luckily no-one was hurt but definitely was shocking to see.

You raise a very goid point on accuracy. For rifle I would rather have the 200 rounds of nickel sized grouping ammo.  But I would prefer above that even 201 rounds of 2-3 MOA accuracy.  Why?  Because I want to make most hits possible on the practical target (man-sized out to 500 yards).  2 to 3 MOA gives me all the wiggle room needed for wind and range estimation errors.  So every extra round is an extra hit.

Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Smurf Hunter on January 22, 2019, 12:38:14 PM
Sorry to hear about the injury, Smurf Hunter.  i recently witnessed a handgun self destruct at the range.  Luckily no-one was hurt but definitely was shocking to see.

You raise a very goid point on accuracy. For rifle I would rather have the 200 rounds of nickel sized grouping ammo.  But I would prefer above that even 201 rounds of 2-3 MOA accuracy.  Why?  Because I want to make most hits possible on the practical target (man-sized out to 500 yards).  2 to 3 MOA gives me all the wiggle room needed for wind and range estimation errors.  So every extra round is an extra hit.

Thanks

I don't disagree with what you say, but will add the context of shooting from 500 yards away is considerably different.  This is more of a "combat" context than self defense.
<insert your Red Dawn fantasy here>.  The invaders are advancing, your position is concealed and you have the opportunity to make a handful of accurate (strategic) shots at distance.  If you're firing for effect into a mob bulk ammo and even carbines might work, vs trying to hit an enemy officer or other strategic target may present fewer opportunities for hits.

I've only taken a few "fighting" style gun courses, and when I started they complained I was "too accurate" and needed to double my speed and double my group sized both.
I guess things are a lot different when it's a 2-way range.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on January 22, 2019, 01:14:41 PM
It's apples and oranges to me. Yes, the long range rifle needs a dedicated load but a shotgun doesn't really care what 8 shot breaks the clay. And there are straddle guns. I wouldn't feel disarmed with a .45 loaded with cheap 230 grain ball.

My dad posits that the AR isn't even an aimed weapon. In Vietnam he treated it like "volley fire". My father in law has a Colt Match AR with a stainless bull barrel. So even within the platform there are use differences.

I have friends who let the bolt rust shut on their .308 deer rifle and kick it open to make 3 shots to make sure the sights are aligned because in our woods they'll never hit a deer outside of 100 yards. Grandpa hunted by putting a .410 in a .45-70.

Figuring out what works for you in your environment can be tricky. There's not always a right answer.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on January 22, 2019, 06:11:37 PM
Thanks

I don't disagree with what you say, but will add the context of shooting from 500 yards away is considerably different.  This is more of a "combat" context than self defense.
<insert your Red Dawn fantasy here>.  The invaders are advancing, your position is concealed and you have the opportunity to make a handful of accurate (strategic) shots at distance.  If you're firing for effect into a mob bulk ammo and even carbines might work, vs trying to hit an enemy officer or other strategic target may present fewer opportunities for hits.

I've only taken a few "fighting" style gun courses, and when I started they complained I was "too accurate" and needed to double my speed and double my group sized both.
I guess things are a lot different when it's a 2-way range.

It may sound strange, but hitting a human-sized target at 500 yards is no problem with 2-3 MOA accuracy.  20 inches at 500 yards is approximately 4 MOA. This isnt 'spray and pray" but rather well aimed shots at a cadence of 1 shot about every 3 seconds. 

We have a 90% qualification rate for our local Known Distance course.  See here for a recent after action report: https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54773.msg361821#msg361821 (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54773.msg361821#msg361821).  Everyone uses typical bulk ammo.

Course of fire is:

10 rounds @ 100 yards in 2 minutes standing
10 rounds @ 200 yards in 55 seconds transition from standing to seated with mag change
10 rounds @ 300 yards in 65 seconds transition from standing to prone with mag change
10 rounds @ 400 yards in 5 minutes from prone
10 rounds @ 500 yards in 5 minutes from prone

The first four stages are for score, the last is for fun.   :)

The real trick is target aquisition and range estimation.  I'm hoping we can run an unknown distance course sometime soon.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: machinisttx on January 22, 2019, 06:39:24 PM
Would you rather have 1000 rounds that were accurate to "minute of barn door" or 250 that were tuned to make nickel sized groups at distance?

Maybe it's like food preps.  If you're starving you'd rather have a case of ramen than a single gourmet meal.

Depends. Am I shooting matches for money, or shooting coke cans at some random distance? For the former, I want the best I can get...and I'm undoubtedly using a firearm that can advantage of it, and conditions are conducive to seeing the difference. For the latter, it needs to be good enough to get the job done and nothing more.

Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on February 04, 2019, 10:26:39 PM
Jillian Gilchrist just announced her 50% tax on ammo bill on twitter.  She is getting ratio'd hard.

https://twitter.com/Jilchrest/status/1092519429232095243?s=19 (https://twitter.com/Jilchrest/status/1092519429232095243?s=19)
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Stwood on February 05, 2019, 07:31:44 AM
Taking a beating
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Smurf Hunter on February 05, 2019, 11:13:10 AM
It might well be that 10 rounds or less is plenty to stop a home invasion.

However it takes 1500 rounds of serious practice (annually) to reach the point were under severe stress 10 rounds was enough.

( Hope I never test this theory. )
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: The Professor on February 05, 2019, 07:59:32 PM
Trump often uses this 'caving' technique when he deals with an issue. We don't know for sure if he is caving or deal-making until it is said and done.

I apologize for my lateness in responding.

I suggest you reread my posts.  I am not saying that the reason the window is closing is because Trump is caving.  I'm saying that the reason the window is closing is because of the PERCEPTION by the buying public that Trump, et al, might be caving.  Emotion,  usually fear, is what drives the panic-buying that we see when a politician either says something anti-gun, does something anti-gun or there is a general belief that an anti-gunner may come into power.

Chances are, Trump won't go anti-gun on us.  BUT, when we read headlines like the above, people start panicking and buying.  More demand means higher prices.  It doesn't really matter what drives that demand.

The  Professor
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Bradbn4 on February 05, 2019, 08:44:08 PM
If people think there is a shortage there will be a shortage - but if you look at the market - very good selection for both ammo and equipment.

I did find a worth while quality upper receiver - for 259...An A2 configuration.   I had bought one of these as a kit for a bit more 4+ years ago and it works quite well as a nice ranch style rifle.  The build time on the lower receiver was just a few hours.

I did find some good quality Russian ammo for grins and giggles for down right affordable price.  It was non- corrosive - so if I take out that old rifle I won't have to give it a soapy bath after I shoot it.

I have even seen some real good prices on 223/556 with rebate down into 23 cents or less per round.  Hard to beat that price with a stick.

The only thing I could use is some 22lr for plinking

Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on February 05, 2019, 11:18:00 PM
However it takes 1500 rounds of serious practice (annually) to reach the point were under severe stress 10 rounds was enough.

Great point.  Or even for recreation.  One of our league chair for 22 benchrest does an introduction for new people interested,  One of his lines is "It's important you understand our nomenclature.  One of these is a "round".  Fifty of these is a "box".  Five hundred is a "brick".  Five thousand is a "case".  Ten thousand is a "good start".
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on April 11, 2019, 12:49:18 PM
Woah!  Things are about to get crazy in Oregon!

https://amp.statesmanjournal.com/amp/2527929002 (https://amp.statesmanjournal.com/amp/2527929002)
Oregon bill would require permits to buy guns, limit ammunition

A bill set to appear in the Legislature this year would require Oregonians to obtain a permit before buying a gun, limit the amount of ammunition a person could buy, outlaw magazines with a capacity of more than five rounds and create gun locking and storage requirements.
...
The bill would require a person receive a permit from their county sheriff before purchasing a gun.

To qualify for a permit the person would need to: be at least 21 years old; have no criminal convictions; have not violated a restraining or stalking order; not use illegal controlled substances; and provide proof of completing a firearms safety course.

Within a 30-day period, someone could apply for one handgun permit and one rifle or shotgun permit.

If someone meets all of those requirements, a sheriff could still deny a permit if he or she "has reasonable grounds to believe" that they are likely to be a danger to themselves or others.

Copies of each permit approved would be kept by the sheriff for at least one year.
....
Limiting 'large-capacity' magazine
If it were to pass in its current form, the bill would also require all "large-capacity" magazines be altered, given to law enforcement or disposed of within 180 days after passage.
...
Other restrictions in the bill include:

Capping at 20 the number of rounds of ammunition a person could receive in a 30-day period, exempting shooting ranges.

Requiring firearms be stored with a trigger or cable lock or in a locked container when not carried or within reach of the gun's owner.

Gun owners would be required to report the loss of a firearm within 24 hours.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on April 11, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
Gun owners would be required to report the loss of a firearm within 24 hours.[/i]

Umm... There are times when I vacation. And frankly if somebody could get my skeet gun out of the house I wouldn't notice until I tried to go shoot a course when I go back to the outdoor range in May. Most of my long guns lie dormant locked up over winter. 24 hours is just no feasible even though I would report as quick as I could.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Stwood on April 11, 2019, 02:20:14 PM
Capping at 20 the number of rounds of ammunition a person could receive in a 30-day period, exempting shooting ranges.


One box a month? Really?
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: iam4liberty on April 11, 2019, 03:28:01 PM
Capping at 20 the number of rounds of ammunition a person could receive in a 30-day period, exempting shooting ranges.


One box a month? Really?

Guess they will need to buy their rimfire and pistol cartridges in ziplock bags.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: FreeLancer on April 11, 2019, 05:23:00 PM
Whoa, my home state is getting even crazier than California!  Twenty rounds per month???

That Portland - Eugene axis controls the politics of the entire state, so anything is possible up there.  Plus their far-left movements are much more militant than down here.  Portland is weird and they're proud of it.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: David in MN on April 12, 2019, 07:54:51 AM
In the early 2000s I had a little fling with a French foreign exchange student. Yup, I'm that guy. Out for coffee or something I brought up how I like guns and she went on a tirade.

From her perspective anyone who wanted a weapon, any weapon, could get it. The EU was opening up and you could get from Poland to Portugal direct on a train with no questions asked. She lived in France but it was a mere train ride to former Yugoslavia to buy an RPG or anywhere in the former Soviet Union where black market AKs were $50.

Years later I worked with a Chinese woman who told me at a cocktail party how dumb Americans are. The Chinese, with great wisdom, understand that there is a concept of "good guy rules" as in there are rules that aren't applicable if you accept that you are a "bad guy". To her an illegal brothel or tax evasion were like speeding or smoking pot. You just accept that you're breaking the law and do it. And once you've done something that carries a life in prison why not double down?

And it all rings true in the past decade. It's about an hour drive to Wisconsin for me and I go back and forth with no questions. But I have this naive belief that driving a few hours north to Canada is different. They can't even keep track of the wolf packs on that border. And you can watch a kid on Youtube cross the Rio Grande. I know James O'Keefe is a right wing shill but the point stands. If you really wanted to do crime that border isn't stopping you.

If banning guns really got rid of guns how do we have a heroin epidemic?

It's this mindset that makes me want every soccer mom to carry an Uzi (safely and supposing she wants to). I realize that to the right person there are no rules. If I'm willing to spend years getting a trucking license, going to flight school, opening a laboratory LLC, learning gunsmithing, exposing myself to radiation, or any other myriad of dangerous skills you can't stop me.

And there's an even more perverse incentive. If I can only buy 20 rounds per month will they be .22 target rounds or hollow points? And if a single shot .22 and an MP5 carry the same prison sentence... Which will I break the law for?
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Smurf Hunter on April 12, 2019, 11:27:25 AM
Theoretically if this was law, there are almost no pistol cartridges sold in qty 20.  Most are 50 rounds, and higher end self-defense ammo are often in 25 round boxes.

I know deer hunters who could manage with 20 rounds of .30-06 or whatever the use.  5-10 to site in before the season and maybe you take 3-5 shots in the field depending.

This is absolutely ridiculous for pistol, not to mention rimfire.  There's not even 3 magazine in a 1911 per month. I'd argue it would limit your ability to practice enough to introduce a safety risk of itself.
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: armymars on April 12, 2019, 03:38:30 PM
What are they going to do when they find out I reload? Grin
Title: Re: The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.
Post by: Bradbn4 on April 15, 2019, 05:37:04 PM
What are they going to do when they find out I reload? Grin

Ban powder, lead, and mostly primers.

New hazmat laws for powder & primers, and well, California did ban most if not all lead bullets for game.

I remember trying to buy primers after 2009 period, ouch.