Author Topic: Bugging out - tactical questions  (Read 28991 times)

Offline Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2014, 08:30:13 PM »
Ever been out west?  There are lots of places that even a local wouldn't go. 

*LOL* There are alot of places a self respecting Mountain Goat wouldn't go. And I have seen them hanging off the sides of mountain walls.

Cedar

Offline TexasGirl

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2014, 10:24:28 PM »
My concern with bugging in until roving hordes of thugs come knocking...  how safe would it be at that point to venture out to bug to another location?

Actually, I feel sorry for anyone that doesn't call before coming over to visit. 

Ummm...  I'll just mention "force multipliers" can improve the odds.

~TG

Offline Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2014, 10:41:00 PM »
My concern with bugging in until roving hordes of thugs come knocking...  how safe would it be at that point to venture out to bug to another location?
~TG

Depends on where you are. If you were in downtown Portland, Oregon, versus where I lived in the bush in Canada, there is a vast difference. I am middle-of-the-road here, but if I could not bug in where I was in Canada, I was pretty much out of options.

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Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2014, 07:15:37 AM »
I live in the city so my bug-o-meter is rather sensitive, which is to say it is set at "leave early".  Staying here is just not an option in any sort of mildly gnarly scenario.  I learned this lesson the hard way on one of my three for real bug outs (hurricanes).  That being said, the scenario presented in the OP is somewhat different.  Even so  I would still lean towards the bug-out vs stand your ground but in the end, the answer really is "it depends".  When you are talking about family there really isn't such a thing as an acceptable loss which is why I lean towards the bug out.   There has already been some great advice in this thread on the topic, I will only add that having some decent caches in various places has given me some peace of mind should my family ever be on the road. 

Offline TexasGirl

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2014, 08:56:57 AM »
I live in the city so my bug-o-meter is rather sensitive, which is to say it is set at "leave early".  Staying here is just not an option in any sort of mildly gnarly scenario.  I learned this lesson the hard way on one of my three for real bug outs (hurricanes).  That being said, the scenario presented in the OP is somewhat different.  Even so  I would still lean towards the bug-out vs stand your ground but in the end, the answer really is "it depends".  When you are talking about family there really isn't such a thing as an acceptable loss which is why I lean towards the bug out.   There has already been some great advice in this thread on the topic, I will only add that having some decent caches in various places has given me some peace of mind should my family ever be on the road. 

I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?

~TG

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2014, 10:01:36 AM »
I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?

Good point. . .   That's why my hope is to see the indicators and leave early with my stuff.  And/or prestage items at my final bug out location.

.

Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2014, 10:05:13 AM »
Quote
I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?

I don't suppose you can cover all of them in reality.  I guess it is sort of like building a church for Easter Sunday.  I view it as something akin to adding another feature or special coverage to an insurance policy.

For my situation I need to go 200+ miles in a generally north westerly direction to get to my place and the community there.  I do have three planned and practiced routes but I know the area and journey well enough that I could improvise on farm and county roads to get to one of the caches.  To your point though, I have investigated other routes going back east, and then north or south before turning west.  Those are less likely though.  You end up getting into a situation with adding numerous river crossings, etc, to the journey.   


Offline TexasGirl

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2014, 11:41:19 AM »
I don't suppose you can cover all of them in reality.  I guess it is sort of like building a church for Easter Sunday.  I view it as something akin to adding another feature or special coverage to an insurance policy.

For my situation I need to go 200+ miles in a generally north westerly direction to get to my place and the community there.  I do have three planned and practiced routes but I know the area and journey well enough that I could improvise on farm and county roads to get to one of the caches.  To your point though, I have investigated other routes going back east, and then north or south before turning west.  Those are less likely though.  You end up getting into a situation with adding numerous river crossings, etc, to the journey.

There are serious choke points on a long BO route. 

In your case here, river crossings, for example.  How many places can you cross the Brazos?  When speaking with a Coast Guard officer (DHS agency in Houston tasked with shutting in the city) he said they can lock down the Houston metro area within 15-20 minutes.  I was amazed at his remark, asking how?  Basically there are only a few choke points, mainly river crossings around outside of the city.

Like you mentioned before, from the hurricane evac experience, it pays to get out a day ahead of any event.

"Please schedule all emergencies with us at least 36 hours ahead of time."

~TG

Offline The Professor

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2014, 11:44:26 AM »
I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?

~TG

No plan can cover every contingency.

The best you can do is prepare. . .and practice.  When you practice, you become competent (hopefully).  This allows you to become more adaptable to the situation because you aren't completely dependent upon what you're carrying.

That's why the items you have in your kit are of great importance and why you should choose them carefully so they give you the maximum advantage in any situation, including the ones you don't foresee.

The three biggest variables in any bug-out scenario are Injury, Hydration, and Food.  These are the "consumables" of which you may not be able to carry enough.  Making sure your kit allows you to address these three needs and having durable equipment to address the other areas means you are less susceptible to failing if your situation evolves.

For clarification: Your shelter, clothing, defensive equipment, etc. are all "durable goods."  They should work under the worst situations.  Since an injury can slow you down, you need to know how to fix it and minimize it's impact upon your travels.  Let's say you choose to slide down an embankment and get a nasty laceration or avulsion on your calf from an unseen piece of metal.  Do you have the proper tools and equipment to fix it?  More importantly, do you have enouqh medical supplies to properly care for it for the duration of your bug-out while minimizing pain and potential infection?

Injuries are, granted, a "What if" scenario.  But Food and Water aren't.  You need them, you carry them and you will consume them.  Make sure your kit includes what's necessary to obtain more of both if your situation is unexpectedly extended.

Yes, we use caches.  But a cache doesn't have to be overly expensive, unless you want to set up a cache that is a "total resupply" cache.  This type of cache includes everything you need in a BOB, including a pack instead of just food and water purification.  If you're going to just do a "consumables" cache, then you can make one up for $100-150 and put one in every direction, assuming you can find an appropriate location.

But even those two distinctions require different placement.  You don't want to do a "Total Resupply" cache more than, say, 16 hours walking distance from your home or office.  Presumably, you need these to initially resupply yourself if the disaster strikes and you are totally unprepared or have to evacuate before you can get to your BOB/GHB.

A "consumables" cache should be placed, IMHO, one day short of the range of supplies in your kit.

But, again, we can't foresee and prepare for every situation.  That's why we must rely upon the greatest strength of the survivalist or prepper: Adaptability.

The Professor

Offline Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2014, 11:58:24 AM »
I'm curious on the cache thing. What if bugging out means going another direction or an unplanned route?  How can you cover all the bases?
~TG

This is why at my last house, I had 4 BOL's, but I did not own or supply any of them. Depending on what the issue was, I might be heading North for one incident, South for another, high country for a third or West if a volcano blew. All my locations had natural shelter, plenty of good water and 9 months of the year, wild edibles.

I have a good idea on my new spots, but I have not determined those are the "perfect" spots yet. I like to have no less than 3.

Cedar

Offline Greekman

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2014, 12:18:46 PM »
hmmm Cedar, not even some supplies, like 5 cans of spam and 5 bottles of water?

Offline Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2014, 12:35:18 PM »
I meant I do not have a cache there in those locations. I have my BOB's. Which in the last 20 years has told me, I have 14 days of food in there. I also have life straws.. and on my side of Oregon, you cannot go 50 yards without hitting a creekline or river. In SAR I taught Summer and Winter survival for 8 years, I taught wild edible foods classes for 5 (?) in my area (I would be lost on the east side of the USA) and I also dog sledded and slept outside at -40F for days at a time for 7 years. I am confident I can build a good shelter to keep us dry and keep us fed for awhile. Comfortable and spider free is another situation  ;)

Will we survive? Who knows, but I know I have a better chance than many. I would rather know I have the tools I need on my back and in my head, than have a cache I am counting on and some guy with a metal detector or truffle hunting finds it and it is gone when I need it. Or in my area, clear cut the area and there is NO landmarks.

Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2014, 01:00:50 PM »
My plans for caching is twice as often as you think you'll need, so if one is gone, you'll likely have the resources to get to the next.

That said, last summer I overestimated my calorie needs and when I hit my day four cache I still had a solid two-plus days of food on board. What I've learned from talking with thru hikers is that you don't need much for calories your first 5-9 days, maybe 2,200-2,600 calories per day, but after that you develop a bottomless stomach where 4,500 calories per day is hardly maintaining you.   When I planned my meals I assumed the 4,500 demand and packed for it, but knowing that, I could have gone much lighter on the food and spared myself three to four pounds or have far fewer caches early on. Thus, in my teotwowki bugout plans, I'll be looking at a 25-30 pound pack for five to six days for a three day's hike to my first cache... Assuming not winter. Winter demands a whole different plan since you're battling both tougher travel and colder temperatures.

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2014, 02:38:09 PM »
What I've learned from talking with thru hikers is that you don't need much for calories your first 5-9 days, maybe 2,200-2,600 calories per day, but after that you develop a bottomless stomach where 4,500 calories per day is hardly maintaining you.

I find that to be the case even on my hunts.  I often have food left over from my pack the first few days, but the last few days I eat it all and require more to drink.

Offline Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2014, 03:04:29 PM »
I know on days when I am more sedate, I pretty much do not eat all day and I do not get hungry. I know when I was doing SAR or dog sledding I was eating eating 3x the amount of a guy twice my size and losing alot of weight. I think I figured out once that doing SAR, I was requiring 4,200 k/cal a day and dogsledding was a stupid amount of food. So I think I figured in a hard core BO situation on foot, I would require 3,800 to 4,200 k/cal a day, due to the extra weight I was carrying, small child I was carrying and the way the land was.

Cedar

Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2014, 04:31:37 PM »
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Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2014, 05:14:03 PM »
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There are serious choke points on a long BO route. 

In your case here, river crossings, for example.  How many places can you cross the Brazos?  When speaking with a Coast Guard officer (DHS agency in Houston tasked with shutting in the city) he said they can lock down the Houston metro area within 15-20 minutes.  I was amazed at his remark, asking how?  Basically there are only a few choke points, mainly river crossings around outside of the city.

Like you mentioned before, from the hurricane evac experience, it pays to get out a day ahead of any event.

"Please schedule all emergencies with us at least 36 hours ahead of time."

~TG

Actually, there are a bunch of choke points.  So many in fact that this issue alone makes you want to locate your primary residence on the right side of some of them.  Crossing 610 and BW-8 are the first two.  Brazos is the the third and is somewhat less of a challenge to me than the other two, sort of.  The challenges are different, let's put it that way.   

I have potential bug out routes broken into thirds based on geographic barriers.  For example, with the center of H-town being the hub of the wheel, the middle sector is the cone formed by 290 and I-10.  Within that cone there are three crossings of the Brazos that do not occur on major highways.   There are a good number more to the south and north with the north being favored for this obstacle (less favored for other things).

As to the caches themselves, there a several consumable resupply cashes stashed at various types of locations prior to reaching the Brazos.  There is a full out resupply cache (closet full of good ju-ju) with all sorts of goodies a little more than half way to the destination.

Consumable caches for me look like food, life straw sort of filter, tarp, small first aid supplies, some cord, small knife, stove fuel, a little bit of ammo, and some other oddball small stuff.  Midway resupply cache has a greater quantity of the above, but also clothes, shoes, fuel, etc.

There are all sorts of "ifs" depending on the scenario one creates but at some point those exercises tend to devolve into a real goat rope if you chase them too far.  At least they do for me.  I've caught myself going down all sorts of rabbit trails when the time a resources spent could have been put to better use.




Offline TexasGirl

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2014, 05:53:12 PM »
Ahhh, but there is a 4th drivable river crossing inside your cone. 

Think outside the box.

I've looked at that a bit.  Often I'm in Houston and might need to get out to the old home place before heading to NE Texas.  Although I know those counties intimately, and carry a "roadblock pass" valid for the cone, I might choose to cross north of the cone as well.  And certainly to get from the old home place to the new farm would require crossing 5 or 6 rivers plus several large creeks depending on the route.  These are concerns for me, too.

I wouldn't consider I-610 or BW-8 as much of an issue as the new Toll 99 due to the number of crossings.

~TG

Offline TNVolunteer

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2014, 07:35:14 PM »
Quote
Ahhh, but there is a 4th drivable river crossing inside your cone.
More than one I think.

Quote
"roadblock pass"

Oh do tell!  There are a couple places I have such things but I'm guessing yours and mine are not the same.  No worries if this is not a thing you wish to air in public.  I understand.  In fact, forget I asked.

Quote
I wouldn't consider I-610 or BW-8 as much of an issue as the new Toll 99 due to the number of crossings.

Not sure I follow on this one.  Tell me more please.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2014, 08:37:12 PM »
I've wrestled with when to head to the BOL in Michigan.  The problem with where our current plan is every other michigander would probably head North to the UP or thereabouts if things got ugly.  Heck on a normal holiday weekend I-75 is packed along with I-69 heading North.  My thinking lately is to simply buy a small 5 acre piece of land within a half day walking from our current house, and shelve any fantasy we would go to the UP with relatives and live happily ever after. 

The property could be developed as sort of a vacation resort.  Pond, swimming pool, hunting blinds, dual use permaculture berms/security, small cabin made of field stone, etc... have to research this more and see what we could do.

It's just like the conventional thinking about what caliber of gun to own.  Lots of people think owning guns in popular calibers is a good idea, and swear off owning weird sizes.  Heck there's plenty of ammo available now in the weird calibers, and common ones for the local area are harder to get. 

The comparison is for us anyways is to take what everybody else is likely to do if SHTF, and do the opposite.  We recently went on a trip North and had an oh carp moment.  The traffic was stop and go with everybody with boats, trailers, and ATVs.

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2014, 10:18:40 PM »
This is why at my last house, I had 4 BOL's, but I did not own or supply any of them. Depending on what the issue was, I might be heading North for one incident, South for another, high country for a third or West if a volcano blew. All my locations had natural shelter, plenty of good water and 9 months of the year, wild edibles.

I have a good idea on my new spots, but I have not determined those are the "perfect" spots yet. I like to have no less than 3.

Cedar

You crack me up Cedar.  You're living at your BOL now.  You have no reason to leave.  Just make sure you don't fall those tree's over the road until I get there.  ;D

Offline Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2014, 11:11:36 PM »
You crack me up Cedar.  You're living at your BOL now.  You have no reason to leave.  Just make sure you don't fall those tree's over the road until I get there.  ;D

There is always a reason. If there was a forest fire we would have to leave and then I would go to YOUR house.  ;D

Cedar

Offline OutWestTX

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2014, 06:53:58 AM »
One scenario I'm prepping for is the possibility that the coming economic collapse will lead to roving bands of thugs looking for resources. .......So, my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? I'm having no luck searching for "rally point" - I get links to some stupid video games. Is there an Army manual available that I can download that covers the principles I need to understand to make sure my family survives an attack such as I describe?


I don't know about manuals, but I think by playing out different scenarios in your mind, you are going in the right direction.  Why not cache food, tools, and weapons in different places in case you need to hide? What if the thugs burn down your house after they ransack it?  Do you have back up shelter?  Could you team up with relatives or another family so you are not alone?  Is every member of your family able to do the chores?  If you get hurt or killed, could they carry on without you? 

Offline Greekman

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2014, 07:34:34 AM »
it is my understanding that Special forces employ rally points and caches in fallback positions.
In a preppers case than will be 360degrees around.
Escape routes are a logical place and friendly/likeminded homes are too.

believe it or not there was a guy in the 1st season of Doomsday preppers that had his mind and tactics straight.
He had alternate fallback/cache positions in his land and his plan was to flee the house, wait for the marauders to occupy it and reverse the game.

There wa also a thread here -a year? back- on secutrity of the retreat and how would crime woudl develop after a collapse.
lots of good info, i will tell if i find it archived

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2014, 06:58:50 PM »
Quote
my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? I'm having no luck searching for "rally point"
-tooparanoid

There are several types of rally points.  A good resource you could use is

Quote
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/Leadersbook_information/Combat_Leaders_Guide/patrol-recon-rally-points-2.shtml
gives a whole presentation on the subject.

Rally point characteristics
Away from natural points of drift ie away from streambeds, utility pole runs, established road and trails.  Basically the rally point route should be "off the beaten path"

Easy to find both day and night.  Use at least two easily defined terrain features either man made or natural.  I used a water tower and a cell phone tower to line up where the rally point was, for example.  Make sure you practice this at night under artificle stress such as doing a bunch of jumping jacks then moving out in bounding overwatch to the rally point.

Offers concealment and cover  make sure the rally point is far enough away from your house that the looters cant see or hear you day and night.  Your family are not tactical ninjas, theres bound to be a lot of talking once hitting the rally point.  Sound travels farther at night, or the looters will be anyways looking for you.  Make sure the kids can carry on a normal conversation, heck even shout a little make a game of it and test if you hear the kids at the rally point from the house.  Cover from small arms is a lengthy topic, research the requirements.

Defendable for short periods.  Nuff said.

Tunnels of Cu Chi by . by Mangold, Tom and Penycate, John.  Great little book and resource.

Google army fms mobile defense.  Hope it helps and have some fun practicing.



Offline soupbone

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2014, 07:49:33 PM »
Remember again that your rally point must be easily reached by all members of the family/group, including 4 yr. old Bobby and 80 year old Aunt Ethel. They need to be able to find it in the dark as much as you will.

soup

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2014, 07:17:09 PM »
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My concern with bugging in until roving hordes of thugs come knocking...  how safe would it be at that point to venture out to bug to another location?-Texasgirl

This is a very good point.  Who's not going to have at least some notice?  In my situation my whole community is at my primary residence.  I have friends that have a ton of experience in the security sector within walking distance, other friends that we see at dinner or ski with, and acquaintances that own a plethora of farm animals.  This is in no way stroking the ego, but if my immediate friends, local police that I know, and acquaintances can't shut down the 5 ways to get into town-then is there really much to live for?  We would give up so much, take a huge risk traveling, to arrive at a relatives house that drinks beer and collects food stamps.  I know nothing about the town he lives in other than where the local restaurant is, and where the meth heads like to hang out on the street corner. 

In military terms to "bug out" means decision points.  We develop SOPs, rehearse, have contingencies,  and have a lot of Soldiers that are ready to perform that decision point. 

Its a great point, for me anyways bugging out means getting the family on an airplane and get out of the region.  I should have enough cash, pre-loaded credit cards, gold, and most importantly plan in place to leave the region entirely.  This of course would take a lot of forethought, planning, preparation, talk-through, walk-through, and rehearsing.  It almost seems to bug out within your own region is not feasible if you don't have that BOL community in place.  I don't think I would ever get to that point due to the time it would take to nurture a BOL. 

My family is Ukrainian and got the heck out of dodge back in the 30's.  They had enough resources and wherewithal to get the heck out when the commies started acting up.  I mean look at it today, do you think the Crimean citizens who are loyal to Ukraine have a chance if they just went regionally to some BOL?  Its almost laughable in that context.  The smart citizen would have boarded a flight on 24 FEB.  On the 23rd you had the Night Wolf Gang forming civil defense squads and raising hell.  I don't want to go to far down this rabbit hole, but I think the point is made.

To each his own, but my option is going to be take all that time I would spend on a BOL, and invest that time locally.  Great if you have a secondary residence, friends, resources, etc... For me though Texas Girl hit a home run about my situation and what I would do.       

Offline backwoods_engineer

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2014, 09:09:06 AM »
This is a great thread.  I am going to have to digest it and re-think our planning.  Like the OP, I have the Joe Nobody books and his worksheets. 

Our plan is to live in a small town, and have a rural retreat "cabin" that is camouflaged and partly underground, so it would look like some junkpiles from the road.  That is our fallback.  But I haven't planned beyond that, in case we need to bug out of there as well.

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2014, 09:16:02 AM »
This is a great thread.  I am going to have to digest it and re-think our planning.  Like the OP, I have the Joe Nobody books and his worksheets. 

Our plan is to live in a small town, and have a rural retreat "cabin" that is camouflaged and partly underground, so it would look like some junkpiles from the road.  That is our fallback.  But I haven't planned beyond that, in case we need to bug out of there as well.
I just saw this on the interwebs yesterday.  https://travel.yahoo.com/blogs/compass/at-this-swedish-ecolodge--the-guests-do-all-the-work-213326057.html
Put a rocket mass heater in there instead of a traditional fireplace, have natural local vegetation growing on the sides and it just might serve it's purpose as a waypoint on the way to your retreat or several of these around your retreat for guests, LO/OP, etc.  The design is ridiculously simple and using galvanized tin roofing would make the design all that much better for longevity and dryness inside.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2014, 07:24:41 PM »
Quote
I just saw this on the interwebs yesterday.  https://travel.yahoo.com/blogs/compass/at-this-swedish-ecolodge--the-guests-do-all-the-work-213326057.html
Put a rocket mass heater in there instead of a traditional fireplace, have natural local vegetation growing on the sides and it just might serve it's purpose as a waypoint on the way to your retreat or several of these around your retreat for guests, LO/OP, etc.  The design is ridiculously simple and using galvanized tin roofing would make the design all that much better for longevity and dryness inside.
-endurance


Not a bad idea.  Dirt, branches, tin, trashbags are cheap.  What would you use as lashings to make the frame, wire tie or plastic zip ties or both?  These would blend right in.