Author Topic: Bugging out - tactical questions  (Read 28987 times)

endurance

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2014, 07:46:27 PM »

Not a bad idea.  Dirt, branches, tin, trashbags are cheap.  What would you use as lashings to make the frame, wire tie or plastic zip ties or both?  These would blend right in.
If you really wanted to go hardcore, plumber's tape and brass deck screws.  It would last generations.  Peel the logs so they don't hold moisture under the bark (which is what makes logs in nature decay so quickly).  Probably your biggest issue would be condensation on the walls if it wasn't adequately ventilated, but if it was only for occasional use, that probably wouldn't be a major concern.

In any case, I saw this and thought about how easy it would be to make for a hunting shelter or build several along the way to my hunting location if the SHTF and driving the 60+ miles wasn't possible.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2014, 02:03:31 PM »
This horse has almost been beat to death, but hear it goes. 

Blend an Army fighting position with shelter builds.  The idea is sound because it doesn't cost much money, fighting positions are a proven primitive technology along with the shelters, etc...

BASIC REQUIREMENTS FOR A FIGHTING POSITION
Cover
the cover of your fighting position must be strong enough to protect
you from small arms fire, indirect fire, and the blast wave of a nuclear explosion.

Frontal cover must be:
Thick enough to stop small arms fire at least 18 in of dirt
High enough to protect your head when you fire from behind the cover
Far enough in front of the hole to allow room for elbow holes and sector stakes so that you can fire to the oblique
Long enough to give you cover and hide the muzzle blast of your weapon

Overhead protection provides protection from indirect fragmentation. When possible, overhead cover
is always constructed to enhance protection against airburst.

Simple and Economic

the position should be uncomplicated and strong. Should require as
little digging as possible and be constructed with materials readily available.

Improvement and Development
should allow for continuous development to improve usefulness. Development can be accomplished in three steps:

Dig in quickly.  Speed is the principal consideration and no special tools or materials are required. Improve with materials available Refine, using stock materials

Camouflage
positions should be built so that all can be camouflaged. It may not be
practical to conceal a defensive position completely, but it should be camouflaged enough to
prevent the enemy from spotting the position by ground observation. If possible, dummy
positions should be constructed around your area.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2014, 03:06:42 PM »
Bug out, cheap




I like this for having a rally point, defensive poz for you and the vehicle



Offline viking

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2014, 05:40:10 PM »
 :popcorn:

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2014, 10:42:41 AM »
I should put in place a bug out plan for:

Normal weather patter events that require a temporary arrangement with family across the state.  This plan requires cash, a route plan, and some coordination with my family.  This plan could also be used in case we loose the home to fire, foreclosure, etc...

A regional event that prevents me from leaving, but we still have to leave the primary residence.  A grid down or any event that shuts off gas pumps would quickly degrade travel.  In this case I should be talking to neighbors and establishing some sort of plan to stay with them temporarily.  I could also have a few of these primitive shelters built to have a place to go temporarily. 

Having a few of these dirt shelters built, if concealed properly, would allow tremendous flexibilty.  I like this option over installing a conex box in the ground.  Its cheap, gives greater flexibilty, easier to conceal, and if 1 dirt shelter is compromised I still have others to use.  Not true for the conex box.  The other thing I like about the dirt shelter is it develops several skills. 

endurance

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2014, 01:17:35 PM »
...  The other thing I like about the dirt shelter is it develops several skills.

And physical fitness.  I love taking on projects that make me active and a project like this takes hiking in with tools and equipment, digging, hauling dirt and logs, construction, and hiking in your cache of supplies.  Do you know how many muscle groups you're using in a project like this?  Cardio, anaerobic, lifting, varied movements, balance work, fine motor skills... it's got it all and it doesn't require a gym membership.  In fact, when you finish, you have something to show for it for years to come besides just 10 pounds off your mid-section.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2014, 08:23:02 PM »
Quote
So, my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? 2paranoid

SMCT CTT Tasks > Skill Levels 2 4 > 0713265705 Sl2 Establish
071-326-5705 (SL2) - Establish an Observation Post

Note. OPs are generally established along probable avenues of approach to listen and observe and to provide early warning of enemy approach.


Standards: Selected a location for an observation post (OP) that provided observation of the avenues of approach, was within small-arms range of the element, and offered adequate cover and concealment. Established communication between the OP and the platoon leader or squad leader.
Conditions: Given a squad- or platoon-size element in a defensive position, a TA-312/PT field telephone and communication wire, or a radio, and a probable enemy avenue of approach.

Standards: Selected a location for an observation post (OP) that provided observation of the avenues of approach, was within small-arms range of the element, and offered adequate cover and concealment. Established communication between the OP and the platoon leader or squad leader.

Performance Steps

Note. OPs are generally established along probable avenues of approach to listen and observe and to provide early warning of enemy approach.

1.   Select an OP.

     a. The site selected for an OP should provide-

       (1)  Maximum observation of the desired area (specified by the platoon leader).

       (2)  Cover and concealment for the occupants of the OP.

       (3)  Concealed routes to and from the OP.

     b. Observation is the best way to determine whether the above conditions exist at a site.

     c. Usually, the best location for an OP is on or near the military crest of a hill. research military crest of a hill on google.  Topographical crests should be avoided because of the possibility of being skylined. It may be appropriate to establish the OP well down the forward slope when observation is restricted by the terrain.

     d. OPs should be within effective small-arms range of the unit establishing the OP, and should be supported by other supporting fire when possible.

2.   Establish and operate an OP.

     a. Wire is the primary means of communication with an OP and may be supplemented by radio. Wire and radio antennas should be carefully positioned and camouflaged to avoid detection by the enemy (figure 071-326-5705-2).

     b. Personnel going to and from the OP must move carefully so movement does not reveal the location to the enemy. Separate routes to and from the OP are established. Camouflage is most important. The OP should be camouflaged even when natural concealment is adequate.

     c. OPs are operated in reliefs. A minimum of two soldiers is necessary for each relief. One observes while the other records and reports observed information. The observer and recorder should switch duties every 20 to 30 minutes, because the visual efficiency of an observer decreases rapidly after that length of time.

     3.   Establish and operate an OP during limited visibility.

       a. The enemy may use a different, more open avenue of approach during limited visibility conditions; therefore, an OP may have to be moved to another position to serve as an OP at night.

       b. Limited visibility OPs are usually closer to defensive positions. Night vision devices may be given for use on the OP. The enemy deploys infiltrators against the defense at night, so a series of OPs, backed up by alert troops equipped with night vision devices and by snipers, can counter this infiltration.

       c. OPs are operated in relief except when movement to and from positions would reveal their locations or endanger the personnel.

More info http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/SMCT_CTT_Tasks/Skill_Levels_2_4/0713265705-sl2-establish-.shtml

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2014, 09:29:01 PM »
:popcorn:
Definitely.  Pass some of that virtual popcorn over here, wouldya?

 :popcorn:  Thanks

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2014, 07:26:30 PM »
The whole idea is to bug out on your own land using primitive shelters, foxholes, spider holes, sheds, etc...  camoflauge is your friend.  The thing about using the primitive shelters and such is you can plant grass, vines, bushes, etc... into them.  They become part of the landscape. 

I also reflected on Jacks episode on bugging out from today's show.  Im thinking about asking a friend across town if I could build a large shed on his land.  He can use it for temporary storage with the understanding if my family ever needs it we could move in for a period.  Just trying to think out of the box on this stuff.  My idea is to set up a few primitive shelters, with a large shed (insulated, some wiring to set up a battery bank, some storage cabinets, and cots, etc...).

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2014, 12:06:56 PM »
List of primitive to log cabins to sheds from amazon.  These all have at least a 4 star rating.

Shelters, Shacks, and Shanties: The Classic Guide to Building Wilderness Shelters (Dover Books on Architecture... by D. C. Beard (Sep 10, 2004)

Cabin, The: Inspiration for the Classic American Getaway Paperback by Dale Mulfinger

Primitive Wilderness Living and Survival Skills by John McPherson and Geri McPherson (Mar 1993)

Rustic Retreats: A Build-It-Yourself Guide by Jeanie Stiles and David Stiles (Jan 7, 1998)

Shelters,Shacks, and Shanties (Elemental Historic Preparedness Collection) by D.C. Beard (Sep 20, 2011)

Building a Shed (Taunton's Build Like a Pro) by Joseph Truini (Feb 1, 2009)

Sheds: The Do-It-Yourself Guide for Backyard Builders by David Stiles and Jeanie Stiles (Jan 11, 2007)

21st Century U.S. Military Documents: Civil Engineer Guide to Fighting Positions, Shelters, Obstacles, and Revetments (Air Force Handbook 10-222, Volume 14)

Here are some free resources for defensive positions

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/survival/fighting-position-design-.shtml Good detail and these would work well in conjunction with permaculture berms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_fighting_position once over the world on fighting positions from the dawn of time to today

A bit about improving the defensive characteristics of an observation post (hide position/defense)  Obviously some of these do not apply to civilians and traditional civil defense bunkers (such as artillery)(and the use of "enemy" put "miscreant" in place of enemy)

Sector Sketch. The section leader prepares a sector sketch (Figure 5-25). This sketch is similar to a fighting position sketch but with some important differences. As a minimum, the sketch includes—
A rough sketch of key and significant terrain, including NAIs and avenues of approach.
Location of the OP.
Location of the hide position.
Locations of vehicle fighting and observation positions.
Alternate positions (hide, fighting, observation).
Routes to and from the OP and fighting positions.
Sectors of observation.
Preplanned artillery targets.
TRPs for direct fire.
Prepared spot reports and calls for fire, based on trigger points and projected locations where the enemy will first be seen.

Improvements. Personnel manning the OP site begin digging in to provide protection from indirect and direct fires. They also camouflage the position, install wire communications equipment and directional antennas for FM communications, and emplace hasty obstacles for local protection. Vehicle commanders and drivers reconnoiter the routes to their fighting or observation positions and alternate positions, perform maintenance, and camouflage vehicles and positions. 

Takeaways-much can be done to your own property, your friend's property, and the local area.  A bug out plan should be put in place that allows the family to:

1) stay local as much as possible.  The time, energy, and community is developed.  If a disaster such as a fire happens to your residence, you plan and arrange to stay at a friends house or have built a livable shed on his property (and vice versa).

2) stay regional as much as possible.  Develop a vacation residence for a longer term stay in a more prolonged crises.

3) Leave the region entirely.  This has not been touched on but have in place passports, cash, etc... to be able to get on a plane and leave.

endurance

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2014, 04:50:02 PM »
I'd add to that list The $50 and Up Underground House Book.  Some very interesting ideas in there and while some of his designs are flawed, when you incorporate a few of Paul Wheaton's ideas and a few of your own, there's a lot there to work with.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2014, 07:49:10 AM »
I'm no expert, but IMHO bugging out due to some breakdown of society will take getting along with others as the primary means of self preservation.  We need the support that a town provides.  You need people in your life from varying backgrounds and culture. You need to trust people now, and if the SHTF to a degree.  It takes only one mistake, even a minor one, to totally screw you and your family.  You need a support network of friends, acquaintances, peers, and people to lean on.  Sure everybody is Rambo and Grissly Adams until stress takes away that higher level thinking.  Under stress you will resort to your worst day practicing a skill set, and that ain't pretty if you're going it alone or just with your family.  You will be dead fairly quickly. 

The whole idea of gangs roaming on bikes is silly.  We have a wonderful technology in America called drones.  If you've never seen what a drone can do you tube it.  The minute if things unravel there will be possibly a massive retaliation with drone technology.  Any large groups of miscreants will be destroyed.  Any group that the govt deams a threat will be destroyed.  If preppers get on the list, anybody hiding out in the mountains will be destroyed.  Drones have thermals, and the operator behind that technology is looking for a kill.  Running around by yourself or with your family in a remote location will be the second place gov'ment will look(1st being interstate highways).  Plenty of operational experience in Afghanistan looking for Taliban climbing mountains to back that statement up.  We enjoyed calling in JDAM and drone strikes on mountains we warned the locals not to be in.  With a single word whole patches of mountains became free fire areas, open to killing anybody caught on them.  The bad guys that lived in small towns, or fringe areas just outside larger population hubs we left alone.  It took a lot of resources to lock down a town, and unless we could prove trouble was coming from a small town, we steered clear.  The urban fight in a town is viscous, even against just a few bad guys.  The minute some wacko survivalist pulls a stunt in a SHTF scenario, then retreats to the mountains, there will be pain.  Lots and lots on drones will provide continuous coverage of remote locations, highways, and state capital areas colocated with airports. 

I get tired of the same old cliche that biker gangs will take your mountain house.  People have no clue about what our own gov'ment would be willing to do.  So go read another silly prepper porn novel about how a family is going to bug out, and go back to sleep.  You will only hear a JDAMS once.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 07:54:47 AM by Big_Al »

endurance

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2014, 11:31:50 AM »
I'm no expert, but IMHO bugging out due to some breakdown of society will take getting along with others as the primary means of self preservation.  We need the support that a town provides.  You need people in your life from varying backgrounds and culture. You need to trust people now, and if the SHTF to a degree.  It takes only one mistake, even a minor one, to totally screw you and your family.  You need a support network of friends, acquaintances, peers, and people to lean on.  Sure everybody is Rambo and Grissly Adams until stress takes away that higher level thinking.  Under stress you will resort to your worst day practicing a skill set, and that ain't pretty if you're going it alone or just with your family.  You will be dead fairly quickly. 

The whole idea of gangs roaming on bikes is silly.  We have a wonderful technology in America called drones.  If you've never seen what a drone can do you tube it.  The minute if things unravel there will be possibly a massive retaliation with drone technology.  Any large groups of miscreants will be destroyed.  Any group that the govt deams a threat will be destroyed.  If preppers get on the list, anybody hiding out in the mountains will be destroyed.  Drones have thermals, and the operator behind that technology is looking for a kill.  Running around by yourself or with your family in a remote location will be the second place gov'ment will look(1st being interstate highways).  Plenty of operational experience in Afghanistan looking for Taliban climbing mountains to back that statement up.  We enjoyed calling in JDAM and drone strikes on mountains we warned the locals not to be in.  With a single word whole patches of mountains became free fire areas, open to killing anybody caught on them.  The bad guys that lived in small towns, or fringe areas just outside larger population hubs we left alone.  It took a lot of resources to lock down a town, and unless we could prove trouble was coming from a small town, we steered clear.  The urban fight in a town is viscous, even against just a few bad guys.  The minute some wacko survivalist pulls a stunt in a SHTF scenario, then retreats to the mountains, there will be pain.  Lots and lots on drones will provide continuous coverage of remote locations, highways, and state capital areas colocated with airports. 

I get tired of the same old cliche that biker gangs will take your mountain house.  People have no clue about what our own gov'ment would be willing to do.  So go read another silly prepper porn novel about how a family is going to bug out, and go back to sleep.  You will only hear a JDAMS once.
I'm not sure what inspired this post, but I'll bite. 

I'll start by saying that I do think being established in a complete community with a variety of individuals, from blue collar trades like pipe fitting and mechanics to white collar professions like medicine and law.  A few businesses like a good hardware store, a post office, a gas station with a shop, etc, would be ideal, too.  However, you need to be a part of that community before the SHTF.  Showing up one day as a stranger, as you mention, is not going to give you much margin for error.  A few mis-spoken words and you're out of there (or worse).

I think there's a lot of doomer-porn based on EROL (End of Rule Of Law).  It is possible, but only under circumstances where the federal and local governments both collapse, which is improbable.  That said, it's not impossible.  The ability for the federal government to stay functioning after the world stops buying our debt will only last for so long.  At some point hyper-inflation from running the printing presses will erode wages, particularly for federal employees who only get the chance to get raises when congress approves them once a year, to the point where people will leave en mass.  The money to run the infrastructure of the federal government could erode over the period of years to a decade given the right set of circumstances, but it's not likely to happen over night.  Under those circumstances you may see a strengthening of local law enforcement where the local tax base is good and the development of protection rackets where the tax base isn't so good.  Under some of those circumstances you just might get a gang of thugs being the local protection racket.

So I don't plan for roving bands of thugs, but I also live in a place where we could manage them effectively.  A community with limited road access and significant geographic barriers has its benefits and its costs.  During a wildland fire there may only be one or two ways out, all clogged with horse trailers and RVs with panicked drivers, during a major blizzard your little neighborhood might fall to being a very low priority and be isolated, during a hurricane you may live in a place which time forgot and not receive any EMS response for days.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2014, 03:44:15 PM »
EROL Excessive Rule of Law

The federal gov'ment has massive stockpiles of resources and is adequately prepared.  We are talking about a shtf and bugging out, what the context will look like.  If one thinks a military organization is going to implode in a shtf is foolish.  In a shtf they become a self licking ice cream cone, with unlimited resources, thanks to the citizens of their nation. There are too numerous to count what a nation's military has done to its own citizens to ignore what is probable under shtf.  You think that a unit is going hungry, run out of gas, not have a nice shelter because their logistics trail dried up?  Come on now, dream up the most oppressive scenario of what the gov'ment would do, then multiply it by 10. 

endurance

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2014, 04:17:46 PM »
EROL Excessive Rule of Law

The federal gov'ment has massive stockpiles of resources and is adequately prepared.  We are talking about a shtf and bugging out, what the context will look like.  If one thinks a military organization is going to implode in a shtf is foolish.  In a shtf they become a self licking ice cream cone, with unlimited resources, thanks to the citizens of their nation. There are too numerous to count what a nation's military has done to its own citizens to ignore what is probable under shtf.  You think that a unit is going hungry, run out of gas, not have a nice shelter because their logistics trail dried up?  Come on now, dream up the most oppressive scenario of what the gov'ment would do, then multiply it by 10.
I agree with you in 95% of the scenarios out there, but satellites don't last forever, complex mechanical flying machines need replacement parts that are manufactured in one plant in the entire world, and rockets cost hundreds of millions of dollars to put into orbit.  As a result, some of the most high tech tools may not be on the battlefield forever.  Toss in a foreign or domestically launched EMP and you have another whole layer of fubar to contend with.

Boots on the ground may always exist or not (some may be more loyal to the constitution than to their masters), but endless abundant technology may always have limits.  Besides, if you don't have constantly running printing presses the food stamps and unemployment checks stop rolling out and then the government has bigger problems to contend with in the city than a few ornery farmers and ranchers.

I'm not a guy who bases his preps on Red Dawn.  I'm just saying that I keep an open mind to all possibilities.  My priority is to build community and resilience so no matter how things go down, I'll have my family in the best position possible.  That includes the desire to have a few caches in the woods between where I live and where I plan on continuing to hunt even if I can't drive there.  Worst case scenario, it's a huge bonus.  If nothing goes wrong, I have the opportunity to have fun with a couple friends building some fun shelters in the woods and get to have a place to spend the night if the weather moves in while I'm hunting.  win-win.

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2014, 04:56:39 PM »
EROL Excessive Rule of Law

The federal gov'ment has massive stockpiles of resources and is adequately prepared.  We are talking about a shtf and bugging out, what the context will look like.  If one thinks a military organization is going to implode in a shtf is foolish.  In a shtf they become a self licking ice cream cone, with unlimited resources, thanks to the citizens of their nation. There are too numerous to count what a nation's military has done to its own citizens to ignore what is probable under shtf.  You think that a unit is going hungry, run out of gas, not have a nice shelter because their logistics trail dried up?  Come on now, dream up the most oppressive scenario of what the gov'ment would do, then multiply it by 10. 

So, what you're saying is that the greatest threat to a US Citizen's life during a massive disaster is our own military?

By your own statement: ". . .dream up the most oppressive scenario of what a gov'ment [sic] would do, then multiply it by 10. . ." this means that you are stating that the US MILITARY will be the most oppressive gang on the block.  Using prior statements in re drones, are you indicating that under a widespread disaster (let's say an EMP/CME event) that the military will be going out, securing peoples stockpiles of food, ammo, medicine, etc., and then sending drones out to search and destroy those in rural areas?

Personally, I think you destroyed your own argument against motorcyle-riding Mad Max scenarios.   Granted, the military may be using HMMWV's and MRAP's as well as .50 calibers, 40mm's, 20mm's and 7.62's against the populace, but what does it matter if the guy threatening your life is wearing a blonde mohawk and assless chaps or kevlar and ACU's?

By your own statement, the Gangs will be clean-cut and wearing NYCO Ripstop instead of shaved-headed, testosterone-laden guys in leather jockstraps and hockey masks.

Ultimately, what's the difference?   You are in a hostile environment with an organized group intending steal yours and do you harm.  Does the mode of transportation or specific apparel really make a difference?

Or, are you saying, it's better to live on your knees with the military oppressing you than stand on your feet when a motorcycle gang does it?

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2014, 05:28:02 PM »
.... My priority is to build community and resilience so no matter how things go down, I'll have my family in the best position possible.  That includes the desire to have a few caches in the woods between where I live and where I plan on continuing to hunt even if I can't drive there.  Worst case scenario, it's a huge bonus.  If nothing goes wrong, I have the opportunity to have fun with a couple friends building some fun shelters in the woods and get to have a place to spend the night if the weather moves in while I'm hunting.  win-win.

.... are you saying, it's better to live on your knees with the military oppressing you than stand on your feet when a motorcycle gang does it?

Interesting final comments to the same post.  Thought provoking, both.  All three actually.

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2014, 05:46:01 PM »
The difference is the gov'ment could possibly hire those motorcycle gangs and miscreants like what happened in when R¥ssia hired a gang to raise hell in the Crimean Pen. (and the thug gov'ment we propped up in @fhanistan.  The difference is the gangs could be working for the gov'ment as "peace officers" or "security contractors" like @fghanistan.  Gangs could not do that to the gov'ment.  Layer hired gangs, with military, with feder@lized local p0lice officers, dr0ne technology, JDA@Ms, ad nauseam.  Besides the gov'ment already has the legal authority to k|ll a citizen, thanks to the NDA@ and P@triot Act.  Just because its not acceptable  practice now, doesnt mean it cant or wont be done in the future.  One has a lot more to fear in gov'ment than roving motorcycle gangs stealing your chickens and raiding your liquor cabinet.

Rural areas are easy pickings for a military unit, don't think for one second because you live in some remote area your safe is all I'm saying.  Hillbillies in the sticks are figurately and literally easy pickings and convenient political target if shtf.  Nobody cares if a few hillbillies get smoked on the back forty while cities are falling apart.  Besides it makes everybody feel good the gov'ment is taking out backwoods t€rrorist in a rural area while urban areas are falling apart.  It also makes for great 30 second news clips to see a suspected t€rrorist farm house get JDA@M'd or h€llfire missle go through the chimney.

The hardest areas from a military and political standpoint is the small towns on the fringe areas of large cities.  You just cant smoke town folk, it makes city folk nervous.

Again this is all .00000000001% stuff, and is good escapist fantasy while my son gets ready for bed.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 05:59:32 PM by Big_Al »

Offline Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2014, 08:55:15 PM »
You are talking about Titushki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky I am not convinced it was Party of Regions who hired them. Viktor Yanukovych was titushki before he became president.

Cedar

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2014, 09:22:09 PM »

The hardest areas from a military and political standpoint is the small towns on the fringe areas of large cities.  You just cant smoke town folk, it makes city folk nervous.

Again this is all .00000000001% stuff, and is good escapist fantasy while my son gets ready for bed.



So, what is a realistic, in your mind, scenario? 

Do you not think that the criminal element will band together in a protracted WROL?  Would they oppress their less-than-criminal neighbor?  Would an area without a dedicated "law enforcement" capability revert back to the Frontier West of the U.S.? Or would a balance be struck and the citizens stand up for their mutual protection?

Or, is the concept of an Extended WROL scenario impossible/implausible to you?

The Professor

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2014, 09:38:04 PM »
Its all 4th generational w@rfare stuff.  Again these observations set the context of shtf and bugging out.  Knowing the context of what could possibly happen allows the end user the ability to plan tactical considerations.  We, meaning US, have been using remote control non state actors for decades to carry out vi0lence on our behalf.  4th generational w@rfare is a way to conduct decentralized, remote control w@r in fringe, remote areas, while your regular units hit the main effort of a conflict.  We've done it in Vietn@m, Cub@, Nicaragu@, El S@lvador, Ir@q, Afgh@nistan, ad nauseam.  For more info on the background go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_warfare

R¥ssia pulls the same crap.  If you want to split hairs on whether they were remote piloting the gangs in the Crimean Pen, great.  I know we love the fog of war and fomenting doubt/deception with our tactical operations.  It is unclear whether mother R¥ssia hired the thugs.  The result of those miscreants raising hell plays into R¥ssian hands.  The connection is made whether R¥ssia paid them or not.

Here is some more 4th generational stuff.  The R¥ssians back in 2008 introduced a computer virus into Georgia before they started kinetic offensive operations.  Background is http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/russian-hackers-beaten-at-their-own-game/

I guess R¥ssia is the only country that would use 4th gen w@r, we would probably not employ gangs and miscreants to subdue rural areas while the military controls mobility corridors.  We, meaning US, only hire gangsters in foreign countries, sh00t americans with dron€ technology if the color of their skin is brown and m¥slim, and would never consider our own units would pull these stunts. 


Offline The Professor

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2014, 12:47:15 AM »
Its all 4th generational w@rfare stuff.  Again these observations set the context of shtf and bugging out.  Knowing the context of what could possibly happen allows the end user the ability to plan tactical considerations.  We, meaning US, have been using remote control non state actors for decades to carry out vi0lence on our behalf.  4th generational w@rfare is a way to conduct decentralized, remote control w@r in fringe, remote areas, while your regular units hit the main effort of a conflict.  We've done it in Vietn@m, Cub@, Nicaragu@, El S@lvador, Ir@q, Afgh@nistan, ad nauseam.  For more info on the background go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_generation_warfare

R¥ssia pulls the same crap.  If you want to split hairs on whether they were remote piloting the gangs in the Crimean Pen, great.  I know we love the fog of war and fomenting doubt/deception with our tactical operations.  It is unclear whether mother R¥ssia hired the thugs.  The result of those miscreants raising hell plays into R¥ssian hands.  The connection is made whether R¥ssia paid them or not.

Here is some more 4th generational stuff.  The R¥ssians back in 2008 introduced a computer virus into Georgia before they started kinetic offensive operations.  Background is http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/russian-hackers-beaten-at-their-own-game/

I guess R¥ssia is the only country that would use 4th gen w@r, we would probably not employ gangs and miscreants to subdue rural areas while the military controls mobility corridors.  We, meaning US, only hire gangsters in foreign countries, sh00t americans with dron€ technology if the color of their skin is brown and m¥slim, and would never consider our own units would pull these stunts. 



Sooo, you're saying that a realistic scenario is an high-tech insurrection of the U.S. conducted by non-state actors and coordinated by a First-world foreign military?

Is this what you're expecting?  Do you have any suggested timelines for this?

Oh, and BTW, if you're trying to circumvent the logical combinatorial system used by spiders to determine symbolic relationships in terms and phrases, you need to substitute more than one letter in a word.  You'll need at least 2/3rds to trick most boolean algebraic-based search systems.  Even that doesn't work, in most cases, if you use the same number of letters/symbols in the original word.

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Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2014, 10:01:15 AM »
I think it's great escapist fantasy that will never happen.  It's much more useful to plan to "bug out" in case you loose your home to foreclosure and fire than to think about the zombie apocalypse. 

WROL is like using the F bomb, everybody thinks it's funny and cute, but at the end of the day nobody takes you seriously.  Sure there may be temporary WROL in the large cities, but when the gov'ment puts the boots down, it will get EROL quickly.  Could there be areas WROL for a period? Sure there can, that is, until the 24/7 reaper drones show up.  To plan a whole collapse around a WROL scenario, where the prepper has geared up a wicked 4X4 truck, 5.11 tacti-cool wardrobe, and carries a BOB that screams "loot here", the EROL event will come rolling along (and military) and say, "thanks for your stuff, you served your country well." 

Practicing skills such as primitive shelter builds, community building, and tossing around ideas is cheap and fun.  Sure we are going to see some bad stuff happen mostly as we are removed as the peg from the petro dollar.  A total SHTF collapse-never. 


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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2014, 10:26:01 AM »
Let's try to steer this thread back on to the original intent; to answer the questions below.  We all have different ideas of what we're preparing for, different personal situations and different tactical considerations.  With that in mind, try to lend what aid you can to others without getting too deeply into why the person is asking for the situation other than just the context.  While we all could use a little reality checking from time to time, this thread is steering toward more philosophical differences than necessary.

Thanks

...
So, my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? I'm having no luck searching for "rally point" - I get links to some stupid video games. Is there an Army manual available that I can download that covers the principles I need to understand to make sure my family survives an attack such as I describe?
...

Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2014, 12:00:13 PM »
Visual aides to understand tactical operations from you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B3GB5i4Yh8 regular Army OPORD briefing in typical field environment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHE3Rq7FOBk a little fringe but this guy had a high view count.  Troop Leading procedures explained

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQtpmuuzLlE good cartoon/animation on basic operations produced by the Army

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gruu3ArsPkY tips on the Army OPORD process

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQpoGyVxENE LP/OP video.  This is as wrong as two bird chirping.  Fast forward to 1:40 and see how many mistakes this guy made with the LP/OP




Offline Canadian Prepper

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2014, 08:53:51 PM »
I really appreciate Big_Al's contributions to this thread.

We are mostly in uncharted territory with regard to WROL or EROL in North America, so I think we should at least consider the effects of developing technologies upon what may happen. Just the changes in night vision technology and their increased availability in the past decades have changed things immensely, so once we add additional considerations like drones, it's amazing to ponder the possibilities.

I think that while increased criminality in the countryside (i.e. Argentina) or some localized rioting might justifiably inform some preps along the lines of the OP's initial post, people organizing to help each other economically, or to resist EROL much like the Solidarity movement in Poland during the 80s might play a bigger role in what might come to pass. At least the latter response, grounded in interpersonal relations, might work best to overcome the advantages of modern technology, that probably cannot be countered too directly, and it could be directed against any roving bands of looters if need be.

Canada owns far less drones than the US, so until we have a crisis up here of sufficient scale to draw in all of those US resources things might pan out differently, but other elements of 4th dimension warfare could still inform what happens here in the meantime. I don't have a country home yet, but hope to at least get dual citizenship (Canada and Hungary, a EU member) along with better organizing my alternate emergency living arrangements (within the city or nearby suburb) in the shorter term (a few months to a year). Since my long term goals are to have a home built on the families' cottage lot, once that happens I will be similarly prepared to what Big_Al recommends. I also subscribe to the idea of forming as large a network of prepared friends as possible, but only time will tell how far I'll get in that regard.


Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2014, 12:59:56 PM »
Jack hit a home run lately about the fantasy shtf scenarios vs what is likely to happen in reality.  None of us can accurately 100% predict what will happen in the future to the U.S., the world, when it comes to predicting the unknown.  If we can't predict what unknowns we will face, then we should focus on what is most likely to happen, and plan out from that point forward.  We know we will face a job loss at some point in our careers, and this is an excellent starting point.

I recently had a job loss.  I knew the job loss was coming, so my wife and I started planning a year out.  We saved enough money to pay bills, and have some extra for living, for a 6 month period.  I know that I have many demonstrable marketable skills, and figured I could beat the average of 6-8 months to find a new job in my functional area.  It took a full 6 months to find a job.  At the 4 month mark, our family went through the stress of me not having work.  We stayed positive, and I took all that negative energy of worry and made a plan, or roadmap, to get hired. 

My wife practiced being the interview boss and quizzed me DAILY on interview questions.  I also made it a point to dress nicely everyday, even though I was unemployed.  I also worked out HEAVY everyday to mitigate stress.  We watched what we ate, and planned healthy meals.  I would also work everyday finding a job, meaning making phone calls, tailoring different types of resumes, and really getting into detail on the coverletter.  On a side note, we were very happy to dive into the food we stored, as it really kept the food cost down during this stressful time. 

Now that I have found a job, we a working on replenishing our food and cash stores.  I was able to build up an emergency fund, but not nearly as much saved when we used it last.  This came in handy, as I paid CASH for an auto repair that came up.  We are clipping coupons and doing all we can to get back our 6 month supply of food.  Once we get a healthy food bank and cash reserve, we will start planning again.

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2014, 04:00:22 PM »
Well done, Big Al!

Offline TexasGirl

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Re: Bugging out - tactical questions
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2014, 07:52:40 PM »
Way to go Big Al, glad it worked out well!

~TG