Author Topic: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin  (Read 52384 times)

Offline Canadian Prepper

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2015, 12:40:25 PM »
Given that several weeks have passed since my last post, I just wanted to provide an update about the effectiveness of this design.

I accidentally chanced upon the ARRL SSB DX contest last month and decided to play. By Saturday night I had about 100 contacts, followed by another dozen or so during about an hour of participation on Sunday afternoon. That provided a plethora of contacts from South America, the Caribbean, and Europe on various bands, with 80 and 40m limited to North American contacts. Outside of that contest I've added some additional countries and provinces, so that the antenna's connected me to about forty countries, a dozen US states plus a few territories, and a few Canadian provinces.

This past week I finally had an opportunity to raise the far end of the wire up by about another ten feet so that it's at about 25-27 feet at its highest. While the band conditions during the past week have been up and down, making a direct comparison difficult, a few people on the nets that I frequent noted that the change resulted in the highest signal reports to date on 80 and 40m. I think that a few local 80m stations might have dropped off slightly as the angle of radiation has changed, but the overall trend suggests an improvement. And during an ARES/Red Cross meeting this past weekend a few people who've talked to me on the HF bands commented favourably about the antenna's effectiveness.

The wire is sensitive towards wet weather, especially when the coax lies on the ground, and I'd like it to tune across a wider portion of the 10 and 160m band, but it's otherwise working awfully well as is. I may raise one corner higher, test it with an analyzer and perhaps eventually add a 600W amplifier, so the story's hardly over, but I wanted to reiterate that it's been working well and keeping me happy.

Offline Carl

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2015, 01:34:48 PM »
Given that several weeks have passed since my last post, I just wanted to provide an update about the effectiveness of this design.

I accidentally chanced upon the ARRL SSB DX contest last month and decided to play. By Saturday night I had about 100 contacts, followed by another dozen or so during about an hour of participation on Sunday afternoon. That provided a plethora of contacts from South America, the Caribbean, and Europe on various bands, with 80 and 40m limited to North American contacts. Outside of that contest I've added some additional countries and provinces, so that the antenna's connected me to about forty countries, a dozen US states plus a few territories, and a few Canadian provinces.

This past week I finally had an opportunity to raise the far end of the wire up by about another ten feet so that it's at about 25-27 feet at its highest. While the band conditions during the past week have been up and down, making a direct comparison difficult, a few people on the nets that I frequent noted that the change resulted in the highest signal reports to date on 80 and 40m. I think that a few local 80m stations might have dropped off slightly as the angle of radiation has changed, but the overall trend suggests an improvement. And during an ARES/Red Cross meeting this past weekend a few people who've talked to me on the HF bands commented favourably about the antenna's effectiveness.

The wire is sensitive towards wet weather, especially when the coax lies on the ground, and I'd like it to tune across a wider portion of the 10 and 160m band, but it's otherwise working awfully well as is. I may raise one corner higher, test it with an analyzer and perhaps eventually add a 600W amplifier, so the story's hardly over, but I wanted to reiterate that it's been working well and keeping me happy.

So you almost won the lottery on a home made experimental NEW 60 odd year old antenna...I am impressed.
You did great work and strengthen what I try to say about how environment effects antennas.Glad to hear from you CP.

Offline Greekman

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2015, 11:57:07 AM »
pheww.. I just had the time to read the whole of this thread.

Carl, how does the Zep design relates to an HF J-Pole?

Offline Carl

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2015, 01:38:06 PM »
It is NOT shunt fed and NOT 1/4  or a half wave in any frequency...so really not similar to a "J" Pole ,besides using ladder line in it's construction. You see,an antenna must NOT be resonant on any used frequency so as to be useful on all the Ham bands.

Continue to read about RANDOM length and see how it is not just any length ,but a special length to permit multiband use.

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=55525.0

Offline Greekman

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2015, 04:00:26 PM »
It is NOT shunt fed and NOT 1/4  or a half wave in any frequency...so really not similar to a "J" Pole ,besides using ladder line in it's construction. You see,an antenna must NOT be resonant on any used frequency so as to be useful on all the Ham bands.

Continue to read about RANDOM length and see how it is not just any length ,but a special length to permit multiband use.

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=55525.0

My mind went on the ground wire being shorter than the driven element.
And yes, I "back calculated" the design and it got me somewhere around 8.5MHz

edit: I just realised that the 17ft element is a counterpoise.

Offline Carl

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2015, 04:22:45 PM »
My mind went on the ground wire being shorter than the driven element.
And yes, I "back calculated" the design and it got me somewhere around 8.5MHz

edit: I just realised that the 17ft element is a counterpoise.

Yes,the 17 foot 'short' side is the counterpoise and though it is close to 20 meter band ...it does a good job with 80 through 6 meters as a 'field' or easy up antenna or as a more permanent base type antenna. I used originally a 17 foot and 35 foot wire in this configuration for up to 40 meters ,but this current version or the W3EDP (the Zeppelin antenna)work consistently better.

Those 'trials' are also in the Ham ,how to section here.

Offline Canadian Prepper

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2015, 03:06:19 PM »
My setup, inspired by Carl's posts, is about 114 feet with two 17-18ft "counterpoises," though neither of mine touch the ground. I picked the longest length that I could make with 150 feet of wire to maximize gain on the lower frequencies, which opened up a great deal of 80m activity that I couldn't hear well or talk to prior to setting up my end fed. I had to play around a bit with feedline length, but eventually found that my choke balun made by wrapping my coax about ten times into 6-8" gave me a wide range of effectiveness from 80 through 15m.

Offline Greekman

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2015, 02:41:45 AM »
found this
Zepp Antenna Theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwYSS335wZw

but I am left with more questions.
Can one modify the feed line to lower resistance at 50ohm? (assuming a single operating frequency). He says something along this at 9:00

Offline Carl

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2015, 06:41:18 AM »
found this
Zepp Antenna Theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwYSS335wZw

but I am left with more questions.
Can one modify the feed line to lower resistance at 50ohm? (assuming a single operating frequency). He says something along this at 9:00

Adjusting the antenna or feedline to achieve 50 ohm impedance will work FOR ONLY ONE FREQUENCY.
The ZEP must be used as NON-RESONANT to get multi band/multi frequency  capability.
The all band capability is due to the fact that it is not resonant on any HAM band without use of a tuner.
50 OHMS is only needed for the radio as radios are no longer built with robust enough components to deal with mismatched impedance.

An example is the 2 meter antenna and why most people choose a 5/8 wave antenna as 'best' ,even though the resonance and impedance is out of range of most radios without the use of matching device in the antenna base...NON RESONANT antennas are nothing NEW...just the need to match radio due to solid state design...read more at the link below and you may change the way you think about antennas.

It is what you should have been taught about antennas and well worth your time to read.

http://www.qsl.net/arrlsb/Digest/Pages/Antennas/antennas03.html

Offline Greekman

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2015, 07:01:12 AM »
Yes I already have...
this is way I mentioned a "single operating frequency" myself.

But I think you also mean to say that it makes no sense to have a single freq zepp?

Offline Carl

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2015, 07:20:55 AM »
You can built a "J" pole with 1/4 wave (adjusted for velocity factor) of ladder line and a 1/4 wave of single wire with the addition of a SHUNT FEED to the antenna. But besides single wire 'easy up' antenna ,much the same can be done in the field as FEED LINE is not needed and a dipole can be directly connected to the radio/tuner with tuner only needed if antenna is not cut to length for frequency AND surroundings.

I like how you think outside of conventional design.... :)  +1 Karma


Also note that a resonant antenna CAN often be tuner adjust to several  bands that are higher in frequency than the primary cut length,
just not as easily as a non-resonant wire...My first experiments were with a 17 feet ladder line and 17 feet 6 inches of wire as a 20 meter antenna with capability on some higher frequencies. I settled on NON RESONANT as the best way to insure multi-band without stressing the tuner capabilities.Don't be afraid to TRY something different ...JUST WATCH THAT POWER/SWR meter if not using an automatic antenna matcher (Tuner)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 07:30:01 AM by Carl »

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2016, 08:56:54 AM »
I plan to get started on my Zepp this weekend. I won't finish but I hope to get a good bit done.  Considering what I read in this thread I have a few questions please.

1.  Should I allow enough coax to form a common mode choke near the feed point (balun)?

2.  If yes what extra length should I allow for the choke?  I believe I read that it should be about 6" in diameter.

3.  I'm pretty sure I will be able to run the entire length of the ladder line vertically.  Then the 67' will run across the yard to a pole that I will         locate in the corner of the yard.  (Their is an outside chance I may be able to go 92' I son't know yet I have not had a chance to measure.) I planned to allow some extra length on the 67' for insulators, wrapping etc.  Is 2 feet enough? 

David

Offline Carl

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2016, 09:25:14 AM »
I plan to get started on my Zepp this weekend. I won't finish but I hope to get a good bit done.  Considering what I read in this thread I have a few questions please.

1.  Should I allow enough coax to form a common mode choke near the feed point (balun)?

YES,20 feet will be enough

2.  If yes what extra length should I allow for the choke?  I believe I read that it should be about 6" in diameter.

as above,but may need number of coils adjusted due to your exact circumstances and tune ability

3.  I'm pretty sure I will be able to run the entire length of the ladder line vertically.  Then the 67' will run across the yard to a pole that I will         locate in the corner of the yard.  (Their is an outside chance I may be able to go 92' I son't know yet I have not had a chance to measure.) I planned to allow some extra length on the 67' for insulators, wrapping etc.  Is 2 feet enough? 

Yes but even longer can be folded back on itself so "OPEN LENGTH" is 67 feet and you might need slight extra for velocity factor,ground conductivity adjustment (if tuning difficulties)

David

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2016, 09:41:13 AM »
Some inspirational material for DIY chokes and baluns.

http://www.hamuniverse.com/balun.html

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2016, 07:41:05 PM »
I'm having a little trouble and need some help.  In the pic below where the long wire portion makes the turn (in my case to go across the yard) I have an insulator.  Is it ok if the long wire makes a couple of loops through the insulator before making it's trip across the yard to is termination point?

« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 07:51:07 PM by Freedom Forged »

Offline Carl

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2016, 06:05:26 AM »
I would not LOOP the transmission wire.though you can...please understand that the image IS NOT the configuration of the antenna...simply an illustration...it can be in a strait line or make a lazy loop about the space available....it is just that strait lines are easier to draw.

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2016, 08:58:53 AM »
I'm having a little trouble and need some help.  In the pic below where the long wire portion makes the turn (in my case to go across the yard) I have an insulator.  Is it ok if the long wire makes a couple of loops through the insulator before making it's trip across the yard to is termination point?



I suggest a gentle bend where possible.  Run antenna wire through an insulator, but use cordage like 550 paracord to tether the insulator.

Here's a standoff made from pvc.  Imagine your 67 foot wire making a slight bend as it leaves that pvc insulator.

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2016, 09:13:21 AM »
Makes sense I guess but I'm having trouble understanding how I can run my ladder line vertically then make the turn to go horizontally for 67 or 92 feet without making a 90* turn.  I can tether the insulator with 550 no problem but it will have to be attached to the 14 ga long wire for strength and not the ladder line.  Or, and I completely missing something SH?  :-\
FF

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2016, 09:39:45 AM »
I would support the weight of the ladder line with 550 paracord and tie a loop bypass to the antenna on BOTH sides of the insulator adding that I twist or bend the antenna wire as little as possible to avoid stress cutting of the wire.SMURF HUNTER has some good thoughts also on the matter , I build for longevity as I depend on others to install for me.

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2016, 09:57:25 AM »
I would support the weight of the ladder line with 550 paracord and tie a loop bypass to the antenna on BOTH sides of the insulator adding that I twist or bend the antenna wire as little as possible to avoid stress cutting of the wire.SMURF HUNTER has some good thoughts also on the matter , I build for longevity as I depend on others to install for me.

I am sorry to ask so many questions.  I guess I'm that special kind of dumb you only read about in medical books.  I don't know what a Loop Bypass is.

I can figure out how to support everything I believe.  But, what I can't figure out is how to go vertical with one part of the antenna and then horizontal with another part without putting a bend in it.  I am obviously missing something and I apologize for being so dense guys.
FF
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:10:26 AM by Freedom Forged »

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2016, 10:31:19 AM »
Here is a quick and ugly sketch I did of my plan to try to help you guys help me.  It is not to scale.  For example, the mast at the bottom will not be nearly that close to the ladder line.......


Offline Greekman

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2016, 11:00:51 AM »
i would get 3 feet of small diameter PVC pipe and flex it like a bow..
Then I would pass the wire through.

Now how to keep it flexed, I do not know. LOL
maybe a 1x1" piece of dowel in place of the bow string?

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2016, 11:54:43 AM »
If you have the space, I would attempt to get the balun up in there air.  Here are a few photos from how I have field deployed the W3EDP.





In both of those, all the weight of the ladder line + wire is on the balun eye bolt hardware. 

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2016, 12:47:46 PM »
SH, what gauge is your ladder line?
FF

Offline Smurf Hunter

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2016, 12:54:49 PM »
SH, what gauge is your ladder line?
FF

18awg 450ohm

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2016, 03:18:07 PM »
If you have the space, I would attempt to get the balun up in there air.  Here are a few photos from how I have field deployed the W3EDP.





In both of those, all the weight of the ladder line + wire is on the balun eye bolt hardware.

Not a bad idea getting it up in the air but I didn't buy that style balun.  This one was delivered today.



Offline Carl

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2016, 09:05:24 PM »
Here is a quick and ugly sketch I did of my plan to try to help you guys help me.  It is not to scale.  For example, the mast at the bottom will not be nearly that close to the ladder line.......



Looks fine , the stand-offs should do just fine too.

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2016, 05:28:16 AM »
Carl, my Google-Fu is weak today so my hunt was unproductive. Do you have any radiation pattern charts for this antenna?
Thanks, FF

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2016, 09:48:46 AM »
Carl, my Google-Fu is weak today so my hunt was unproductive. Do you have any radiation pattern charts for this antenna?
Thanks, FF

It depends:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_wire_antenna#Radiation_pattern

Offline Freedom Forged

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Re: All Band Single Wire Antenna,The Zeppelin
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2016, 10:43:07 AM »
It depends:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_wire_antenna#Radiation_pattern

I can see how it does.

Actually I am trying to solve a problem with mine SH.  I am not getting the performance with mine that I think I should.  I'm not sure what I'm basing that on except my expectations.  Expectations too high?

Difficulty making contacts on several bands etc.  Have no trouble receiving.  Tuner tunes all bands, SWR acceptable.   

I paid a lot of attention to detail during my build so I hope I didn't miss anything.  Ladder line is 17 feet.  Long wire is 92 feet.  I did wonder about this though.  This say http://www.hamuniverse.com/randomwireantennalengths.html 92 feet is a multiple to avoid.  Could this be an issue. 

Thoughts?
FF