The Window is about to CLOSE. Get your guns and ammo NOW.

[CarbideAndIron]

For sure, even if someone wants to argue that the window is not closing, prices are so good right now. No reason not to have ample supply of battle rifle related stuff.

[David in MN]

Put in my order for a Savage 10 GRS in 6.5 Creedmoor. But I have a disorder...

https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/long-range/10-grs

[Smurf Hunter]

I shared with some others privately that I recently suffered an injury involving handloaded ammunition.  I don't share this to digress into the details of my incident.  Just know it involved a VERY dense pistol powder, with a tighter than needed crimp, in a super light weight pocket revolver.  Perhaps a perfect storm of less than ideal circumstances.

My wife is sympathetic as my blown apart left thumb recovers, however she's REALLY down on the hand loading hobby now.  (I just realized the pun in "hand load" since my "hand" was injured, but I digress)

I experienced the 2012 panic as most had, and vowed to not get caught by surprise again.  In addition to accumulating commercial cartridges when good values were found, I also began accumulating components.  Nothing crazy, but a few thousand primers of each type, enough smokeless powder to match, and about enough projectiles for 1/4.  The reason I went lighter on the bullets, is they have no hazmat restrictions for shipping and thus are logistically simpler to acquire.  I really thought of it like "I have $1000, what's the wisest investment I can make to have the greatest ammo supply long term?"

Again, I've got enough components to to load up an infantry squad with .223. 

I suppose I can lay low for a while.  Maybe just break out a brick of .22lr and take it from square one with my wife. I really do not prefer cases of military ammo.  I think my stuff shoots a little better. When a person says they prefer the M885 NATO 62gr green tips, I think they aren't any kind of serious marksman.

[machinisttx]

Anyone shooting mil surp ammo isn't trying for the tightest groups in the world. I have quite a bit of it in 8mm mauser and 7.62x54r. I don't expect it to drive tacks...I expect it to go bang and shoot groups small enough to hit man sized targets at reasonable distances. If I had or used a .223/5.56 and M193 or M855 I wouldn't be expecting anything more than that either....and I don't know anyone that would.

[Stwood]

Anyone shooting mil surp ammo isn't trying for the tightest groups in the world. I have quite a bit of it in 8mm mauser and 7.62x54r. I don't expect it to drive tacks...I expect it to go bang and shoot groups small enough to hit man sized targets at reasonable distances. If I had or used a .223/5.56 and M193 or M855 I wouldn't be expecting anything more than that either....and I don't know anyone that would.

10-4 on not driving tacks. I have a lot of mil surp 30.06 and just want it to hit the object in question.

[Smurf Hunter]

Would you rather have 1000 rounds that were accurate to "minute of barn door" or 250 that were tuned to make nickel sized groups at distance?

Maybe it's like food preps.  If you're starving you'd rather have a case of ramen than a single gourmet meal.

[Stwood]

Would you rather have 1000 rounds that were accurate to "minute of barn door" or 250 that were tuned to make nickel sized groups at distance?

Maybe it's like food preps.  If you're starving you'd rather have a case of ramen than a single gourmet meal.

Probably the ramen. It will most likely last longer. 

[iam4liberty]

Sorry to hear about the injury, Smurf Hunter.  i recently witnessed a handgun self destruct at the range.  Luckily no-one was hurt but definitely was shocking to see.

You raise a very goid point on accuracy. For rifle I would rather have the 200 rounds of nickel sized grouping ammo.  But I would prefer above that even 201 rounds of 2-3 MOA accuracy.  Why?  Because I want to make most hits possible on the practical target (man-sized out to 500 yards).  2 to 3 MOA gives me all the wiggle room needed for wind and range estimation errors.  So every extra round is an extra hit.

[Smurf Hunter]

Sorry to hear about the injury, Smurf Hunter.  i recently witnessed a handgun self destruct at the range.  Luckily no-one was hurt but definitely was shocking to see.

You raise a very goid point on accuracy. For rifle I would rather have the 200 rounds of nickel sized grouping ammo.  But I would prefer above that even 201 rounds of 2-3 MOA accuracy.  Why?  Because I want to make most hits possible on the practical target (man-sized out to 500 yards).  2 to 3 MOA gives me all the wiggle room needed for wind and range estimation errors.  So every extra round is an extra hit.

Thanks

I don't disagree with what you say, but will add the context of shooting from 500 yards away is considerably different.  This is more of a "combat" context than self defense.
<insert your Red Dawn fantasy here>.  The invaders are advancing, your position is concealed and you have the opportunity to make a handful of accurate (strategic) shots at distance.  If you're firing for effect into a mob bulk ammo and even carbines might work, vs trying to hit an enemy officer or other strategic target may present fewer opportunities for hits.

I've only taken a few "fighting" style gun courses, and when I started they complained I was "too accurate" and needed to double my speed and double my group sized both.
I guess things are a lot different when it's a 2-way range.

[David in MN]

It's apples and oranges to me. Yes, the long range rifle needs a dedicated load but a shotgun doesn't really care what 8 shot breaks the clay. And there are straddle guns. I wouldn't feel disarmed with a .45 loaded with cheap 230 grain ball.

My dad posits that the AR isn't even an aimed weapon. In Vietnam he treated it like "volley fire". My father in law has a Colt Match AR with a stainless bull barrel. So even within the platform there are use differences.

I have friends who let the bolt rust shut on their .308 deer rifle and kick it open to make 3 shots to make sure the sights are aligned because in our woods they'll never hit a deer outside of 100 yards. Grandpa hunted by putting a .410 in a .45-70.

Figuring out what works for you in your environment can be tricky. There's not always a right answer.

[iam4liberty]

Thanks

I don't disagree with what you say, but will add the context of shooting from 500 yards away is considerably different.  This is more of a "combat" context than self defense.
<insert your Red Dawn fantasy here>.  The invaders are advancing, your position is concealed and you have the opportunity to make a handful of accurate (strategic) shots at distance.  If you're firing for effect into a mob bulk ammo and even carbines might work, vs trying to hit an enemy officer or other strategic target may present fewer opportunities for hits.

I've only taken a few "fighting" style gun courses, and when I started they complained I was "too accurate" and needed to double my speed and double my group sized both.
I guess things are a lot different when it's a 2-way range.

It may sound strange, but hitting a human-sized target at 500 yards is no problem with 2-3 MOA accuracy.  20 inches at 500 yards is approximately 4 MOA. This isnt 'spray and pray" but rather well aimed shots at a cadence of 1 shot about every 3 seconds. 

We have a 90% qualification rate for our local Known Distance course.  See here for a recent after action report: https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54773.msg361821#msg361821.  Everyone uses typical bulk ammo.

Course of fire is:

10 rounds @ 100 yards in 2 minutes standing
10 rounds @ 200 yards in 55 seconds transition from standing to seated with mag change
10 rounds @ 300 yards in 65 seconds transition from standing to prone with mag change
10 rounds @ 400 yards in 5 minutes from prone
10 rounds @ 500 yards in 5 minutes from prone

The first four stages are for score, the last is for fun.   

The real trick is target aquisition and range estimation.  I'm hoping we can run an unknown distance course sometime soon.

[machinisttx]

Would you rather have 1000 rounds that were accurate to "minute of barn door" or 250 that were tuned to make nickel sized groups at distance?

Maybe it's like food preps.  If you're starving you'd rather have a case of ramen than a single gourmet meal.

Depends. Am I shooting matches for money, or shooting coke cans at some random distance? For the former, I want the best I can get...and I'm undoubtedly using a firearm that can advantage of it, and conditions are conducive to seeing the difference. For the latter, it needs to be good enough to get the job done and nothing more.

[iam4liberty]

Jillian Gilchrist just announced her 50% tax on ammo bill on twitter.  She is getting ratio'd hard.

https://twitter.com/Jilchrest/status/1092519429232095243?s=19

[Stwood]

Taking a beating

[Smurf Hunter]

It might well be that 10 rounds or less is plenty to stop a home invasion.

However it takes 1500 rounds of serious practice (annually) to reach the point were under severe stress 10 rounds was enough.

( Hope I never test this theory. )

[The Professor]

Trump often uses this 'caving' technique when he deals with an issue. We don't know for sure if he is caving or deal-making until it is said and done.

I apologize for my lateness in responding.

I suggest you reread my posts.  I am not saying that the reason the window is closing is because Trump is caving.  I'm saying that the reason the window is closing is because of the PERCEPTION by the buying public that Trump, et al, might be caving.  Emotion,  usually fear, is what drives the panic-buying that we see when a politician either says something anti-gun, does something anti-gun or there is a general belief that an anti-gunner may come into power.

Chances are, Trump won't go anti-gun on us.  BUT, when we read headlines like the above, people start panicking and buying.  More demand means higher prices.  It doesn't really matter what drives that demand.

The  Professor

[Bradbn4]

If people think there is a shortage there will be a shortage - but if you look at the market - very good selection for both ammo and equipment.

I did find a worth while quality upper receiver - for 259...An A2 configuration.   I had bought one of these as a kit for a bit more 4+ years ago and it works quite well as a nice ranch style rifle.  The build time on the lower receiver was just a few hours.

I did find some good quality Russian ammo for grins and giggles for down right affordable price.  It was non- corrosive - so if I take out that old rifle I won't have to give it a soapy bath after I shoot it.

I have even seen some real good prices on 223/556 with rebate down into 23 cents or less per round.  Hard to beat that price with a stick.

The only thing I could use is some 22lr for plinking

[iam4liberty]

However it takes 1500 rounds of serious practice (annually) to reach the point were under severe stress 10 rounds was enough.

Great point.  Or even for recreation.  One of our league chair for 22 benchrest does an introduction for new people interested,  One of his lines is "It's important you understand our nomenclature.  One of these is a "round".  Fifty of these is a "box".  Five hundred is a "brick".  Five thousand is a "case".  Ten thousand is a "good start".

[iam4liberty]

Woah!  Things are about to get crazy in Oregon!

https://amp.statesmanjournal.com/amp/2527929002
Oregon bill would require permits to buy guns, limit ammunition

A bill set to appear in the Legislature this year would require Oregonians to obtain a permit before buying a gun, limit the amount of ammunition a person could buy, outlaw magazines with a capacity of more than five rounds and create gun locking and storage requirements.
...
The bill would require a person receive a permit from their county sheriff before purchasing a gun.

To qualify for a permit the person would need to: be at least 21 years old; have no criminal convictions; have not violated a restraining or stalking order; not use illegal controlled substances; and provide proof of completing a firearms safety course.

Within a 30-day period, someone could apply for one handgun permit and one rifle or shotgun permit.

If someone meets all of those requirements, a sheriff could still deny a permit if he or she "has reasonable grounds to believe" that they are likely to be a danger to themselves or others.

Copies of each permit approved would be kept by the sheriff for at least one year.
....
Limiting 'large-capacity' magazine
If it were to pass in its current form, the bill would also require all "large-capacity" magazines be altered, given to law enforcement or disposed of within 180 days after passage.
...
Other restrictions in the bill include:

Capping at 20 the number of rounds of ammunition a person could receive in a 30-day period, exempting shooting ranges.

Requiring firearms be stored with a trigger or cable lock or in a locked container when not carried or within reach of the gun's owner.

Gun owners would be required to report the loss of a firearm within 24 hours.

[David in MN]

Gun owners would be required to report the loss of a firearm within 24 hours.[/i]

Umm... There are times when I vacation. And frankly if somebody could get my skeet gun out of the house I wouldn't notice until I tried to go shoot a course when I go back to the outdoor range in May. Most of my long guns lie dormant locked up over winter. 24 hours is just no feasible even though I would report as quick as I could.

[Stwood]

Capping at 20 the number of rounds of ammunition a person could receive in a 30-day period, exempting shooting ranges.


One box a month? Really?

[iam4liberty]

Capping at 20 the number of rounds of ammunition a person could receive in a 30-day period, exempting shooting ranges.


One box a month? Really?

Guess they will need to buy their rimfire and pistol cartridges in ziplock bags.

[FreeLancer]

Whoa, my home state is getting even crazier than California!  Twenty rounds per month???

That Portland - Eugene axis controls the politics of the entire state, so anything is possible up there.  Plus their far-left movements are much more militant than down here.  Portland is weird and they're proud of it.

[David in MN]

In the early 2000s I had a little fling with a French foreign exchange student. Yup, I'm that guy. Out for coffee or something I brought up how I like guns and she went on a tirade.

From her perspective anyone who wanted a weapon, any weapon, could get it. The EU was opening up and you could get from Poland to Portugal direct on a train with no questions asked. She lived in France but it was a mere train ride to former Yugoslavia to buy an RPG or anywhere in the former Soviet Union where black market AKs were $50.

Years later I worked with a Chinese woman who told me at a cocktail party how dumb Americans are. The Chinese, with great wisdom, understand that there is a concept of "good guy rules" as in there are rules that aren't applicable if you accept that you are a "bad guy". To her an illegal brothel or tax evasion were like speeding or smoking pot. You just accept that you're breaking the law and do it. And once you've done something that carries a life in prison why not double down?

And it all rings true in the past decade. It's about an hour drive to Wisconsin for me and I go back and forth with no questions. But I have this naive belief that driving a few hours north to Canada is different. They can't even keep track of the wolf packs on that border. And you can watch a kid on Youtube cross the Rio Grande. I know James O'Keefe is a right wing shill but the point stands. If you really wanted to do crime that border isn't stopping you.

If banning guns really got rid of guns how do we have a heroin epidemic?

It's this mindset that makes me want every soccer mom to carry an Uzi (safely and supposing she wants to). I realize that to the right person there are no rules. If I'm willing to spend years getting a trucking license, going to flight school, opening a laboratory LLC, learning gunsmithing, exposing myself to radiation, or any other myriad of dangerous skills you can't stop me.

And there's an even more perverse incentive. If I can only buy 20 rounds per month will they be .22 target rounds or hollow points? And if a single shot .22 and an MP5 carry the same prison sentence... Which will I break the law for?

[Smurf Hunter]

Theoretically if this was law, there are almost no pistol cartridges sold in qty 20.  Most are 50 rounds, and higher end self-defense ammo are often in 25 round boxes.

I know deer hunters who could manage with 20 rounds of .30-06 or whatever the use.  5-10 to site in before the season and maybe you take 3-5 shots in the field depending.

This is absolutely ridiculous for pistol, not to mention rimfire.  There's not even 3 magazine in a 1911 per month. I'd argue it would limit your ability to practice enough to introduce a safety risk of itself.

[armymars]

What are they going to do when they find out I reload? Grin

[Bradbn4]

What are they going to do when they find out I reload? Grin

Ban powder, lead, and mostly primers.

New hazmat laws for powder & primers, and well, California did ban most if not all lead bullets for game.

I remember trying to buy primers after 2009 period, ouch.