Author Topic: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?  (Read 21134 times)

Offline Storm

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2010, 06:57:13 PM »
Storm,
I see you changed your response.  Please elaborate?  How would you handle the question?

My first response was to a Bible-related event, but I didn't have the verses handy, and I saw that we were inf act getting off topic, so I changed it to set it up for my second post which may or may not have worked.

As my second post says, I believe knowledge IS a prep worth sharing. If I find that I can increase my chance, and my family's chance or friends chance of surviving bad times or making any kind of normalcy in a bad situation, I will take it by giving up some of what I may have set aside. On that note, however, if things were to go bad, say, some one I initially built a trust with ended up taking and just bolting...well...I'm not responsible for any one's actions but my own. That's on his head and he'll have to answer for it. If I'm put into that situation I have faith that I will be provided for, most likely through my knowledge of the land. Both knowledge and land given to me by God. In the end, for me, it all works out. I can be ridiculously negative some times, but I'm an optimist at heart.

So, it's hard to break it down more simply for me. Would I help some one? Sure I would. Would I be happy if they decided to stay on and form a semblance of community? Absolutely. Would I berate myself if they just took and left? No, not if I thought, in my heart, that they weren't a down right evil person. But, I wouldn't dwell on it either. I would do what I always do and buckle down and start over.

Offline Dainty

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2010, 07:04:24 PM »
My natural inclination will be to defend my family from all harm to the death, so God will need to yell to get my attention if he wants me to lay down. 

I don't believe he would allow me to do what's right in my own mind unless I have closed him out of my life.  Knowing that I'm counted as one of his, Jesus says no man can take me from his flock so if I believe that I'm doing right all the while asking God's guidance... I gotta believe he will correct me as one of his own at that moment if I'm indeed doing my will and not his.

Until He tells me his will is not to protect my family, I would advise against any roaming thugs to try and take this ants stash. :)

Agreed. The following verse seems applicable and is much in line with what PAGUY was saying: "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." - 1 Timothy 5:8. The context is providing for needs, not necessarily defense. The scenario you put forth is one of the few where protection measures and providing material needs turn out to be the same thing, and that's why it's such a difficult issue to find a hard answer on.

Unfortunately I live in the middle of "Injun Country" and they all know I was LEO and have been prepping for the past 2 years. 

I'm under surveillance all the time by my "neighbors" (scroats) whom consider me the enemy and will have no issue with combining toward the common interest of taking what I have.

A few thoughts...as you're probably already aware, the Bible advocates living at peace with everyone as far as it depends on you (Romans 12:18, Hebrews 12:14). If these people have already decided you're the enemy, then it might be worth it to consider moving in order to facilitate peace. I have some friends that are in a similar boat; their neighbors have become downright hostile and have done dangerously threatening things to them, so even though these friends are living in their dream house they will move because of the neighbors. It isn't a popular option, but if other methods of de-escalating the situation are ineffective it is worth considering. From what I can tell you're watching this confrontation coming from a mile away--wouldn't the wisest and most peaceful option be to avoid it entirely?

All that being said, I think you'd find some good stuff reading through Nehemiah with your situation in mind. It's a great example of using peaceful strategies but being ready to fight, of defending homes and families, of enemies on all sides making trouble, and of God providing throughout it all. I would add some quotes from it but once I get started it's hard to stop, and this post is already long enough. :P

Offline NWBowhunter

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2010, 07:08:04 PM »
I think it falls to "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" I expect my preps to help a lot more than myself. Starting with my immediate family that has not prepared. Then my neighbors and any ones else God puts in my path.

It doesn't mean I'm going to give away everything. But I will share my knowledge and skills to help them to provide for themselves.

Offline cerakoter

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2010, 07:35:06 PM »
Storm,
Quote
I can be ridiculously negative some times, but I'm an optimist at heart.
+1 If it were not for the fact that I believe God is in control I would have built an undeground bunker years ago and removed myself from society. LOL

Dainty,
I am going to start re-reading Nehemiah tonight. Thanks!

My neighbors and I have a mutual agreement to mind our own business that has worked for the past 12 years.  I do know them well enough and their kind (dealt with enough to know) that while we are cordial to each other, there is always a plan to kill each other running in the back of our heads. LOL, yes I'm kidding for the most part.

We were all set to move but the crash has us upside down in the house now and there is no way out short of foreclosure and re-rooting.  I do have a new 28ft trailer and truck to BO with which is a likely scenario in most short term crises.

NWBowhunter,
If God puts a group of armed people in your path that want to take your preps... What do you do?

That's the question, not if we should have charity and give when we can. I'm all about helping my neighbor if I can, but you can only bring so many into the lifeboat before it tips over and everyone in it dies.

Offline Darkwinter

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2010, 07:44:45 PM »
 I look to the bible for inspiration but not as a text book.  The bible has been written and rewritten thousands of times as it has been translated from the original text.  There are also many texts that were written that were not included in the current bible.  And of course there are texts that were written post Christ that appear in other books.

From "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek"  the bible is filled with what seems to be contridictions.

I am a man of faith, but I do not follow the bible as a book of codified laws.  

I would suggest strongly to look to your faith leader and present them with your questions.  They will give you guidence to find the path that you are searching for, but remember that faith is in your heart.  You, will have to find the path that you search for.

Offline cerakoter

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2010, 08:00:57 PM »
Darkwinter,
While your points on the various translations and "errors" found in them are valid to an extent, I believe that the Bible is God 's method of speaking to us through the interpretation and guidance of the Holy Spirit (so says the Bible) and is more than an inspirational read.

I don't have a "faith leader" unless you count the words of Christ (back to the Bible again) but will agree that we have to find our own way and that God will answer us in His timing.

I believe "iron sharpens iron" and is why I posted this thread asking Christians for their input. 

Many non-Christians have given excellent advise which I appreciate as they provide "outside the box" viewpoints that sometimes make us re-think our positions BECAUSE it comes from someone other than a "Faith Leader" and is outside our previous thought realm.

In the end we are all required to be Bereans and search the scriptures... asking questions like this in a forum (as shown in this thread) gives us a chance to suggest where the applicable scriptures are.

I have not found a forum that has handled such a potentially heated debat/question as well as this one.  You truly have something unique here and I appreciate the excellent conversation with all of you.
 

Offline Darkwinter

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2010, 08:10:00 PM »
I suggest going to a "faith leader" simply because they are schooled and devout and as you stated "iron sharpens iron".  What better place to look for answers than a "man of the cloth". 

Exodus, is a place to look for laws, and you can reference Exodus 22:25 - Here it states, in my opinion, that if someone breaks into your home at night, then you cannot be charged with murder if your defend your home:

If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

It also states here that if you find the theif and he cannot reimburse you for damages, that you can sell him into slavery.  Clearly slavery is not moral, so we have to look at this pre-Christ text with a grain of salt.

Like I stated before, I don't think that there are ANSWERS in the text.  If you take a mans life, you will be judged by what was in your heart when it happens.

To me, charity is important. 

Offline jbm555

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2010, 01:21:10 PM »
I found this while I was going through a tough financial spell and was struggling the truth (actually the lie) about tithing. But I think it applies in this case also. 

I Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This doesn't actually state that your family comes before others but if you read the entire verse I believe it implies that your family should come first especially your own household. After that extended family then others. 

However, if you have the means (supplies) and can afford to provide for others I think you should (I would), but not at the cost of your "household". 

hobbs67

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2010, 02:11:04 PM »
Quote
Do you grow your own food?  Didn't God command farmers NOT to reap the edges of their field for this very purpose?  The Bible DOES talk about this... something about providing for aliens (wanderers) and widows... it's in the old testament, and I'm not Christian, but I'm SURE it's there.

You actually see this come up in the New Testament as well when the Pharisees see Jesus' disciples eating from this area on the Sabbath.  I agree that it supports the idea of charity, but at the same time it also supports the idea of property rights.  The owner of the field is allowed to keep the 90% after all.  This is also dealt with in the New Testament in Acts when Ananais and Sapphira are struck down by God after lying to Peter about how much they gave to the Church.  I'm paraphrasing, but Peter says that the money they had was theirs to give or not give, they were not under an obligation, their sin was trying to lie to God about it. 

 Oregonshooter, its a constant question for me and likely for most Christians with an eye toward survival.  I would first say that the repeated strain in my thought process in this regard is my preparation is not for me and my family, its for someone else appointed to use it later, I am hoping that we are not here at that point.

That said, if I am wrong or the calamity is simply a precursor to the final act I break it down as follows:

Is it ok to act in self defense -- To me the answer is clearly yes.  Argue what you will from turn the other cheek and love your enemies, but Jesus also told His disiciples in Luke that a time was coming when He would not be with them and that if they did not have one, sell their cloaks and buy a sword because it would be needed.  Our God is also the same God of David and Joshua, two tough military leaders acting under the direction of God.  The commandment is also not to murder, not to not kill.

Is it okay not to give all we have as charity, pre or post SHTF -- also again my answer would be yes.  Ananias' problem was that he lied to God, not that he didn't give everything.  The rich young ruler is told to give everything away by Jesus not because that is the rule for everyone, Jesus did not tell that to everyone, but because he had made money his idol.  Solomon is written to have been one of the wealthiest men on earth at his time, he got in trouble for his idol worship not his wealth.  Following God in how He leads in this regard would seem to be the point.

How do we draw the line -- thats the hardest answer as I could not possibly imagine seeing people suffer, particularly children and not wanting to do something vs. I could not imagine watching my family starving , but God sometimes has people do things that are incredibly hard. 

This is where I fall back on the God will lead me if I am willing to be lead.....in other words....its not our job to fix what we see as the problem our job is to follow God.

jbm's comment is also agreed with as I believe that we are commanded to take care of our families first, give to the body of believers second and then to your neighbor in need third. 

Offline Heavy G

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2010, 03:29:22 PM »
Just checking in on a thread with religous content to make sure things stay cool.  So far, so good.

Offline otowner98

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2010, 05:58:32 AM »
It technically is geared towards nations, but I would think the Just War Theory could be used as a good framework for a Christian to decide if deadly force was a legitimate option in a given situation.  In a nutshell:

    * the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
    * all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
    * there must be serious prospects of success;
    * the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

I seem to remember having to do just such an exercise in Moral Theology class in high school.

Offline gobblerblaster

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2010, 10:28:09 AM »
As a Christian who is active in my Church and one that is involved in feeding the needy through another ministry, I may not be an expert on this subject but, I have a "While the Door is Open" policy. In Matthew , JESUS give the parable of the 10 bridesmaids or virgins. In this parable, five of them where wise and five foolish. The wise had enough oil to last until the groom (JESUS) came and the foolish did not. When the shout came that the groom was coming, the wise got up from their sleep and trimmed their lamps and filled their vessels and the foolish ask the wise for oil. The wise did not give to them and they where told to go buy for themselves and while they where gone, the groom opened the door to the wise and shut the door when the five wise where inside and HE would not open the door to the foolish when they returned. While the door is open, I will do what I can to help others and am quick to do so but, once the call goes out
(T.Stuff.H.F.) the door is shut and my responsibility is then to my family and whoever is in my dwelling place. This may seem like a hard thing to some but, the Bible also says (I think in one of the Timothy's) that a man that does not take care of his family will be counted as worse than an Infidel. That includes not only their daily needs but, it is my duty to defend my ability to make that provision. Everyone has had the same opportunity time wise, to make preparations. If they can't see the need or ignore the warning signs and choose not to do the same for their family and themselves than there is nothing I can do. I am at this time, helping my Church family (the one's that will hear) get their houses in order. I am doing and telling anyone that will heed the call but, as they say you will know it is to late to prepare one second after you realize you should have. This is basically where my responsibility ends with people outside my household and family maybe with the exception of widows and orphans but, even at that you have to make sure you can sustain your family first. Just MHO.

Offline Dainty

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2010, 11:02:48 AM »
+1 gobberblaster.

That parable makes it clear that there is a time and a place to refuse helping others.

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2010, 12:30:33 PM »
There is an inner conflict in every religious or even philosophical text I've seen, the Bible not withstanding. The wisdom is found where the conflict settles into harmony. The bible speaks of having charity for your neighbors and strangers. It also speaks of taking care of your family. Find where those two concepts have harmony and you have your answer.

Offline Storm

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2010, 01:42:22 PM »
Ditto.

The whole thing has kind of degenerated in my mind as to what a single person is going to find acceptable, justified by any thing religious text or not. I know some, even in my family, adhere to the Bible more than I, and I accept that. But a harmonious combination you're comfortable with makes perfect sense.

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2010, 03:17:30 PM »
Ditto.

The whole thing has kind of degenerated in my mind as to what a single person is going to find acceptable, justified by any thing religious text or not. I know some, even in my family, adhere to the Bible more than I, and I accept that. But a harmonious combination you're comfortable with makes perfect sense.

I guess I would point out that the question is not what you are comfortable with, a person can be comfortable with just about anything but that doesn't make it Biblical. 

gooblerblaster--

 I have always taken the parable of the 10 bridesmaids to have a specific application, personal salvation -- you can't rely on anyone else to prepare you for Jesus' return, but your point is a good and interesting one.

Quote
Everyone has had the same opportunity time wise, to make preparations. If they can't see the need or ignore the warning signs and choose not to do the same for their family and themselves than there is nothing I can do
.

I don't disagree with you and I wish I could be as clear as that, but for me the whole idea of John 3:16 argues against it.  While we were still sinners, God sent his Son to save us...While they are desperate grasshoppers God may still use me....ala Joseph and his brothers.

So I agree with you as to priorities, but I acknowledge that God may have other plans.

Offline Storm

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2010, 03:41:18 PM »
Hobbs,  of all the people I know, all of have varying ways of living life, and of interpreting the Bible. So, they could argue all day about this particular question and find all kinds of justification in Scripture and it's THAT interpretation that will dictate their answer to it and their degree of comfortability in helping or turning away. Then again, most people I know don't look for such cut and dry answers as a yes or a no.

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2010, 04:06:22 PM »
When I spoke of finding the harmonization point, I was being deliberately vauge. Even when using a religious text as a guide post, the end conclusion is often individually specific to the circumstances. For the sake of examples, I'll give two:

First is there is a major earthquake. I have roughly 6 months worth of food, and full scale disaster relief is expected in no more than 3 weeks. I would reserve about 4 weeks worth and discreetly find needing recipients for the rest (I have established channels for doing that BTW).

Second is there is a prolonged famine due to ______. It is expected that it will be resolved by the next year, but until then stores will be barren and what you have is what you will have to deal with. I have about 6 months of food stored. I'd do what I could to help others (particularly those that would become viable survivors with minimal assistance), but my family will have to come first. Fact is when famines strike, they resolve themselves two ways. First is the cause of the famine is compensated for, and second the population is reduced through a combination of death and/or reduction in new birth.

That to me provides the harmony of loving my neighbor, while fulfilling my responsibility to my family. I will add that the harmony balance shifted radically when I got married. For example there are personal risks I wouldn't have given a second thought to when helping another that I have to consider under a different light given that I have a responsibility to be alive and functional tomorrow.

Offline JGreene

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2010, 04:08:48 PM »
My only "mandate" is to prep so I'm in a position to be able to help others.  That's all I need.

Offline gobblerblaster

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2010, 04:15:06 PM »
Well, you know I think survival depends on having cut and dry answers. I have to be able to rely on the answer that I believe the HOLY SPIRIT hands down to me. My Family is what I am responsible for, first and foremost.

 As I said, I am actively ministering to people at this moment in time. I am warning them to stock up and prep. The ants will hear, the grasshoppers won't. At the Ministry we are still helping even the Grasshoppers while the sun is shining and the door is open and the ministry is actively planning for the time when soup kitchens will be needed and we are actively stocking for it. The only thing there is; and I have made it clear to the Pastor there, that I will not be there to help if things get bad in a major way because I will be at home with the gate locked, taking care of my own.

 I also like the Noah reference. Noah built the ark and stocked it, once he and his family where aboard the door was sealed by GOD himself. I can't say for sure but, I think there where probably knocks at that door when the rain came pooring down. When the sun stops shining the door at my little abode is going to slam shut and anyone that approaches will be warned (probably with a shout and a shot). If they proceed GOD help them.

To each his own and everyone has to make this decision for themselves and I would not begin to tell someone that they have to handle this in the exact same way and I can even see that at some point in the game, that I may deviate from this but, what I have laid out is my general plan.

 You all offer some interesting comments though and I have enjoyed everything I have read so far. I am really glad to find a bunch of folks that take this stuff serious. So many that should, do not.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 04:29:15 PM by gobblerblaster »

Offline gobblerblaster

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2010, 04:23:16 PM »
When I spoke of finding the harmonization point, I was being deliberately vauge. Even when using a religious text as a guide post, the end conclusion is often individually specific to the circumstances. For the sake of examples, I'll give two:

First is there is a major earthquake. I have roughly 6 months worth of food, and full scale disaster relief is expected in no more than 3 weeks. I would reserve about 4 weeks worth and discreetly find needing recipients for the rest (I have established channels for doing that BTW).

Second is there is a prolonged famine due to ______. It is expected that it will be resolved by the next year, but until then stores will be barren and what you have is what you will have to deal with. I have about 6 months of food stored. I'd do what I could to help others (particularly those that would become viable survivors with minimal assistance), but my family will have to come first. Fact is when famines strike, they resolve themselves two ways. First is the cause of the famine is compensated for, and second the population is reduced through a combination of death and/or reduction in new birth.

That to me provides the harmony of loving my neighbor, while fulfilling my responsibility to my family. I will add that the harmony balance shifted radically when I got married. For example there are personal risks I wouldn't have given a second thought to when helping another that I have to consider under a different light given that I have a responsibility to be alive and functional tomorrow.
Now I can live with that. I guess I should have said first of all that that was my plan in an all out SHTF scenerio . Of couse  I would help folks in a minor short term emergency and have. We had a major ice storm here in 07 and I think I was the only person that had lamp oil in a two county area that would give it out and I took three familys at different times, into my home,

Offline Storm

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2010, 05:12:44 PM »
I think we're all pretty close to being in the same ball park in terms of what we'd do, regardless of how we actually get to the decision, using the Bible as a pathway to it, or any other text. The end game, it seems, is the same to most of us.

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2010, 05:23:45 PM »
Edit -- reread and this part removed as that came out in message form a lot different than intended. My apologies.

Hobbs

Quote
I also like the Noah reference. Noah built the ark and stocked it, once he and his family where aboard the door was sealed by GOD himself. I can't say for sure but, I think there where probably knocks at that door when the rain came pooring down. When the sun stops shining the door at my little abode is going to slam shut and anyone that approaches will be warned (probably with a shout and a shot). If they proceed GOD help them.

To each his own and everyone has to make this decision for themselves and I would not begin to tell someone that they have to handle this in the exact same way and I can even see that at some point in the game, that I may deviate from this but, what I have laid out is my general plan.  

 You all offer some interesting comments though and I have enjoyed everything I have read so far. I am really glad to find a bunch of folks that take this stuff serious. So many that should, do not.

That's a good one as well.  The angels also didn't have Lot stop to try to help anyone when he left Sodom and turned his wife to salt for not trusting where God was leading so I definitely hear you.  Jesus tells everyone to run directly to hills in the Olivet discourse, not to pass go on the way.  

My only point in my thinking is to try to avoid what I think of the Rawles "Patriots" delusion.  All the retreat folks in the book are pictured as Christian and happy as clams sitting in their retreat (losing weight too, yay!!) as the world around them is dying, including likely family and friends.  God moves as God moves and He may have a radically different plan for the situation....He usually does for me now so why should it be any different later.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:46:24 PM by hobbs67 »

Offline Storm

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2010, 05:26:41 PM »
Well, it certainly won't be me who starts a fight here, but while you CAN find cut and dry answers in the Bible, there are numerous contradictions, whether it's OT to NT or book to book. We all worship in our own way, I'm mostly just glad that we worship.

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2010, 05:48:02 PM »
Inbox --  I don't quite know what to make of what you are saying -  on the one hand you are talking about a "religious text" and the Bible being the same as all the others in search of harmony, entering New Age all paths lead to heaven land, on the other loving thy neighbor?

I won't say it is impossible to get me to speak religiously on a forum, but I can't remember it ever happening either. I have my personal beliefs, but I find civility much more prevalent and threads live longer when forum discussions of religious texts are left at a ethics level. I wasn't lumping religious texts together in a New Age sense. I was simply pointing out a constructional concept common in but not exclusive to the Bible. Loving thy neighbor is probably the secular/ethical hallmark of the entire New Testament.

Well, it certainly won't be me who starts a fight here, but while you CAN find cut and dry answers in the Bible, there are numerous contradictions, whether it's OT to NT or book to book. We all worship in our own way, I'm mostly just glad that we worship.

I've found that the contradictions commonly cited would be better termed conflicts in that they typically don't contradict when taken in context. I do find it interesting that both religious and non religious people often come to the same ethical conclusions when weighing the same totality of circumstances, and that typically where there is a disagreement it stems from a disagreement of the factual existence of one or more of the circumstances.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 06:00:12 PM by inbox485 »

Offline Dainty

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2010, 06:13:50 PM »
I think we're all pretty close to being in the same ball park in terms of what we'd do, regardless of how we actually get to the decision, using the Bible as a pathway to it, or any other text. The end game, it seems, is the same to most of us.

I disagree--for my part, anyway.

If I felt that God was calling me to give away all my food to strangers and die of starvation myself, I would do so. The theology of Christianity involves "dying to yourself" that is, basically you're no longer living to serve your own wants and needs, and even your own life does not belong to you, but rather to God. So whatever He says goes, even if it results in death.

I know this is controversial, but Christians are called to put serving God even above their own family. That isn't to say you should provide for them (the passage in Timothy is very clear on that point) but rather that if it ever comes down to a choice between family or obedience to God, God is the one you pick. Even if the consequences are drastic. There are people who have been forced to watch while their own children are killed in front of them, all because they refused to deny Christ. It's a horrible thing to be placed in that position, and I know that for those of a different religion or of no religion at all it probably appears wrong to put "religion" above the lives of your own children. The fact is, according to Scripture, their priorities were in the right order.

The difference that I'm seeing is that Christians are willing to lay down their own lives and even the lives of their families for the sake of obeying God, if it comes to that. Thankfully in countries without persecution those situations are currently rare to non-existent. But it can happen post-SHTF, not only with dilemmas about stored food but also questions of helping a stranger stricken with an unknown illness and risk the lives of the group by pathogen.

I think that most scenarios would not be as cut and dried as "I either use lethal force to defend my food or my family dies of starvation." I think in a lot of cases the dilemma could be mitigated through good communication, compromise, hiding food, and such. But if it did come to that? I would do whatever I was certain the Lord was leading me to do at that time. I would pray for guidance, trust that He would not let me err, and do what I thought was best, believing that He will provide. If that meant lethal force to defend my family's dwindling food supply then so be it, and if that meant giving away all our food and then waiting for miraculous provision akin to manna falling from the sky, then so be it. I'd do either one, because I find a biblical basis for both. And when that happens it means I have to rely on the discernment given by the Holy Spirit at that time.

BTW, yes, I do realize that mindset appears to be foolish, naive, extremist, and probably a whole bunch of other things, but I trust that we can stay focused on the topic at hand.

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2010, 06:22:47 PM »
Dainty, you said it better than I could.  I'm with Dainty.  (that sounds funny for some reason)


Offline berul

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2010, 06:24:15 PM »
Here is a book that explains the just use of force from a Biblical standing.

http://shop.faithdefenders.com/When_is_it_Right_to_Fight_p/books-colon-whenisitrighttofight.htm

The Lord did not tell the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords so they could carve apples

Offline Storm

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2010, 06:30:53 PM »
I've found that the contradictions commonly cited would be better termed conflicts in that they typically don't contradict when taken in context. I do find it interesting that both religious and non religious people often come to the same ethical conclusions when weighing the same totality of circumstances, and that typically where there is a disagreement it stems from a disagreement of the factual existence of one or more of the circumstances.

You probably said it better than I did, most likely why I try to avoid such talk on the web.

I disagree--for my part, anyway...BTW, yes, I do realize that mindset appears to be foolish, naive, extremist, and probably a whole bunch of other things, but I trust that we can stay focused on the topic at hand.

Just one of those instances where people believe different things. I can accept what you say, I just think differently. Nothing comes between me and my family, heaven or earth, and any decision I make is mine. What happens after is between me and my God.

Actually, I had a lot more I just typed, but in retrospect, I won't be posting it. We'll keep it to the disagreeing part and leave it at that. I've had this discussion with too many clergymen with good results to have it on the internet where it could deteriorate drastically.



In regards to the OP: I hope you find your answer.

Offline cerakoter

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2010, 07:21:48 PM »
Dainty,
Perfectly put. 

One thing I'd like to add is that you may not have time to pray for guidance and I find that we tend to react to what our training has prepared us for.  The question is brought up so as to have a plan that is inline with God's Word for when the occasion presents itself.

If Christians waited for spiritual guidance before every critical decision there would be alot of dead people from inaction.  We don't need to pray to God to know that taking the life of a punk pointing a gun at your daughter is the right thing to do if it's the only choice given.

We should be able to have a plan based on God's Word for the OP scenario also based on God's Word. 

When I read (and this is not directed at you) "I will have to wait and see what God wants me to do" I wonder why hard decisions always seem to become a spiritual matter with no clear cut answers?

Hasn't God provided an answer to all the questions in his Word?  Is there really anything new under the sun?  Then why can't we expect to find an answer in God's Word instead of hoping we will receive divine intervention when we need it?

We read that "no work = no eat" in the Bible, do we tell ourselves we will just wait to see what God has us do when we have no job and are hungry?  No, we get a job as the Bible tells us to.

I mean it sounds all spiritual to think we can wait for a guiding hand but common sense is not necessarily a contradiction to God's Word.

Just my $0.02 right or wrong