Author Topic: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?  (Read 20729 times)

Offline Dainty

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2010, 07:42:37 PM »
One thing I'd like to add is that you may not have time to pray for guidance and I find that we tend to react to what our training has prepared us for.

I agree. We do not always have time to ask for guidance. I take the approach of training for both, not for one or the other, so that I will be equally prepared based on my discernment of an instantaneous situation.

Edited to add: Another point is that I do not believe God delays in guiding us when we need guidance that second, as I've experienced many times. Sweetheart's Mom put it well in the beginning of this thread:
I truly believe that if I am ever in that postion, I will hear God and know what to do.


When I read (and this is not directed at you) "I will have to wait and see what God wants me to do" I wonder why hard decisions always seem to become a spiritual matter with no clear cut answers?

Hasn't God provided an answer to all the questions in his Word?  Is there really anything new under the sun?  Then why can't we expect to find an answer in God's Word instead of hoping we will receive divine intervention when we need it?

I believe you may misunderstand me. I am not saying God's Word doesn't have the answer, I'm saying that it contains both answers. I cannot choose one side without taking a pair of scissors to my Bible and cutting out the verses that support the other. Debating the matter in my head is like watching a tennis match between two equal players. The ball just goes back and forth and back and forth as there are verses with a ready response to each rebuttal. It's kinda entertaining. But I'm still left without a clear "winner".

The Bible is clear-cut on many things; the scenario presented is not one of those things, from what I can tell. And so I accept both answers as having a time and a place, I prepare to do either one, and I trust that God would not let me err as I remain open to His guidance.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 07:51:30 PM by Dainty »

Offline cerakoter

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2010, 08:29:41 PM »
Dainty,
I don't think I  misunderstand you, I agree that there are both answers to many questions in life contained in the Bible. 

I just see a lot of people not willing to even look at the court let alone watch long enough to realize both sides are equally matched and realize when the time for one side or the other is at hand.

Offline Dainty

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2010, 08:38:32 PM »
Ah, I see.

Indeed.

hobbs67

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2010, 09:40:21 PM »
Quote
When I read (and this is not directed at you) "I will have to wait and see what God wants me to do" I wonder why hard decisions always seem to become a spiritual matter with no clear cut answers?

On this point I always think of King Saul and Samuel from the OT, when God tells Saul to do something, i frankly don't recall what exactly as I sit here -- I think it was to make a sacrifice, but Saul was required to wait on Samuel's arrival to do so.  Saul doesn't wait and goes on to do exactly what the Lord asked, but according to his own understanding and since he did not do it in the Lord's time and following the Lord's direction, it was bad in the Lord's eyes.

I may have a clear cut plan based upon Scripture and what Ibelieve the future holds, but often God has not given the prodding and direction yet to truly know where He will lead and that may be in a different direction that I expected.  It certainly will not contradict the Word, but God's ways are so much higher than ours and for me, often I just haven't gotten there yet.
 

Quote
Hasn't God provided an answer to all the questions in his Word?  Is there really anything new under the sun?  Then why can't we expect to find an answer in God's Word instead of hoping we will receive divine intervention when we need it?

Dainty's point is a good one here, two Biblical principals that can be applied in the same situation and waiting on God to choose the way. 

God has given us the ultimate answer, Jesus = Son of God = Eternal life, but he does not tell us today what He will require of us tomorrow or when the SHTF.  Paul praying for his thorn to be taken away is an example, He certainly had the important answer, Jesus but still asked God to heal Him, Paul's preference, only to have God give him a better answer -- His grace is sufficient for us.

Quote
We read that "no work = no eat" in the Bible, do we tell ourselves we will just wait to see what God has us do when we have no job and are hungry?  No, we get a job as the Bible tells us to.

I mean it sounds all spiritual to think we can wait for a guiding hand but common sense is not necessarily a contradiction to God's Word.

Just my $0.02 right or wrong

Oregonshooter, I agree with what you are saying, but don't think the I don't know in the end answer and what you are saying are mutually exclusive. 

Offline cerakoter

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2010, 09:58:10 PM »
hobbs67,
Great points.  For me it can come down to this... Have a plan based on God's teaching (know how to make the sacrifice as Saul did) but know when it is not your job to follow the plan and remain open to the Spirit's guidance at all times even after you have put your plan into motion.

Abraham's sacrifice comes to mind also.

Offline berul

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2010, 09:53:43 AM »
Here is somethin i found from the late Matthew Henry thought was some what fittin, at least as far as the
diligence of duty

    When we are in trouble and want, it is folly for us to stand looking upon one another, that is, to stand desponding and despairing, as if there were no hope, no help,—to stand disputing either which shall have the honour of going first or which shall have the safety of coming last,—to stand deliberating and debating what we shall do, and doing nothing,—to stand dreaming under a spirit of slumber, as if we had nothing to do, and to stand delaying, as if we had time at command. Let it never be said, "We left that to be done to-morrow which we could as well have done to-day."
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 10:03:58 AM by berul »

Offline TexasScout

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2010, 08:11:15 AM »
Hey all, first post here.

I like an idea that I saw on Glenn Beck's show the other day.  He suggested that we each have a "charity bucket" for everyone of our family that does not prepare.  Just a five gallon bucket with a lid and in it place some food items, first aid, water, etc and tell them; I have been warning you for a long time about this, now here is what I can offer.  You have shown "Christian Charity" and fulfilled your obligations without putting your family at risk.  You can't feed the world and the only thing Christ asked you to do is what you can.

Offline Heavy G

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2010, 08:17:00 AM »

I like an idea that I saw on Glenn Beck's show the other day.  He suggested that we each have a "charity bucket" for everyone of our family that does not prepare. 
 

Texas Scout:

Great first post.  Here is a thread on 5-gallon buckets that serve this purpose:  http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=1968.0 

They would only last a little while, but they'd be something.  I must say that I feel better about my prepping knowing that out at my BOL ("bug out location" for new folks) I have five of these 5-gallon buckets full of food and things like a can opener to give out. 

Offline smajda

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2010, 04:51:36 PM »
Here's an issue I struggle with as a Christian.  I spend time and money prepping, build up a food storage, fuel, water, guns & ammo and for what?  

When SHTF I will have 2 choices...
1. Give it to anyone that asks for a handout, eventually depleting my supply and starving my family.
2. Defend it with deadly force, raising moral issues.

What's the proper Christian thing to do given the above two choices.  You can wrangle the question around, but in the end those are the only two choices.  Sure, I will give what I can, but the demand will easily overcome the supply I have.

So can anyone show me Biblical evidence to support either position?

I think the problem here is that you have been presented with a false dichotomy.  We worship a God who will provide and who's will can be done on earth. (We also look forward to the day when his will will be done on earth as it is in heaven, but I digress.)

If there is a third way you can think of then God can do it.

But lets look at choice number one.  If this were truly the case, not giving it away only prolongs the inevitable does it not?  If you are only relying on stored food there is a limit.  If you have a way of bringing in food on top of your provisions, which is more likely the case, I truly believe that you can ask for something in return.

2 Thessalonians 3:10

 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.

Now don't get me wrong, I think there is a point where after you have prepped for your family, you should start prepping for your neighbor. And charity will be required of you.  So what do we do when the charity rations run low?  I personally (I know, easy for me to say now) think we should err on the side of charity and rely on God.  The charity should be used as an evangelism tool as well.  Be a cheerful giver, let yourself be a reflection of Christ.  Let them know how hard you have it but you think that God will provide.  Invite them into your home.  And let the situation be about God.  (this is very important for choice number two.)  Perhaps you will win a brother to christ?

At the same time I think there is a point where you can say, I am sorry I do not have anything to share. You must decide when that is. When God leads you to that place.  

The first few generations of christians went into plague infested cities to pray for people and help heal them.  Not all of them made it back out.  This SHTF scenario like every other situation in life should be used in any way to glorify God.

Now option number two.  Somebody mentioned selfless acts.  Would you really kill somebody over the last morsel of food between your family or them? Is that really worth killing somebody for?  I again do not believe in the only two choices option in any situation and that God will always provide another way.  Why would you need to use deadly force? What about incapacitating force?
Our most important weapon as Christians is the name of Jesus the Christ.  You can (and I know people who have) rebuke somebody in the name of Jesus, disarming them.  

You said that its a moral issue to use this deadly force and I agree. But then I got a little confused with this statement.

Many want to claim that God would never justify a war like he did in Israelis day and take "love thy enemy" to an extreme that is in direct contradiction with the OT and the "ensamples" as Paul said it was to us.

Like I said in the OP... I'm not talking about not having charity, that is a core tenement to the faith.  I'm talking about being a "lamb led to the slaughter" situation.


Why do you think its a possible moral issue?

I think it is, because of what you talked about in this last quote.  Jesus's command to love your enemies.  This is taught in what I (and many others) believe is the foundational teaching in Jesus's ministry, the sermon on the mount (Matt 5-7.) I wanted to just repost the love your enemies section but then I kept reading before and after and all of it is so good and pertains so much to your question.  Reread your question and then read the sermon on the mount then read the question again.  I think the answer is there, it is quite obvious, and it is quite contradictory to almost all of the other answers on the thread.
 
If this person that you think you might have to use deadly force on is your enemy, then you are commanded to love them.
If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life...
then surely the most unloving thing you can do to anybody (including your enemy) is seal somebodies fate to perish.

So to sum up the answer to the second part of your original post.  I do not believe that option two is an option for the christian.  Keep them scared away in the first place by hanging hunting trophies around.  Incapacitate them. by spiritual means (rebuking in Jesus's name) or by non-lethal force.  This might sound hypocritical but I really don't think that it is, but I wouldn't see a problem with knocking them out cold so that they could get the help they need later.  

But for the love of God do not send them to hell.  Thats not our calling as Christians, the devil doesn't need any help, and that judgement is reserved for God and God alone.

If your conversation with the man has been a spiritual one, a Christ centered one, and lord forbid they overcome your family, you will die as martyrs.  The best thing you can do to prep is to be prepared to stand before his throne.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 05:16:09 PM by smajda »

Offline idelphic

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2010, 06:16:57 PM »
Texas Scout:

Great first post.  Here is a thread on 5-gallon buckets that serve this purpose:  http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=1968.0 

They would only last a little while, but they'd be something.  I must say that I feel better about my prepping knowing that out at my BOL ("bug out location" for new folks) I have five of these 5-gallon buckets full of food and things like a can opener to give out. 
Thank for the post link Heavy G - One thing I might add is a few 8oz and 16oz bottles of water...  not many,.. just a few...

Offline WV_Hampshire

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2010, 09:51:57 AM »
Well, I believe that as husbands and fathers we are called to take care of our family first, we do this by prepping ourselves and family.   Lets remember the story of Noah.  Noah prepared himself and his family and no one else listened to him.  He was able to protect his family through his preparations.  He didn't share his boat with the unprepared.

Now, if you have surplus or leftovers, then you can share them if you want, but I think in a true SHTF senario we will want all the supplies we have for our families.

Also, the 10 commandments doesn't forbid killing, it forbids murder.  Big difference between killing and murdering.  If you are a soldier in combat you kill the enemy.  If an intruder comes into your home you will want to shoot and kill him.  The bible doesn't forbid these types of killing or killing in general.  Murder is much, much different than just killing.  The hebrew word is related to murder not killing.

So if your unprepared neighbors or intruders try and take your preps in a SHTF scenario, then you have the right to defend yourself and your family.

Offline boboroshi

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2010, 02:12:51 PM »
James Wesley Rawles (at SurvivalBlog) has posted on this topic a lot. Here's one example with extensive Biblical references:

http://www.survivalblog.com/2008/11/letter_re_food_storage_versus.html

From my perspective, God has provided me with the knowledge and awareness of the problem and the ability to prepare for it.

It's similar to the story told of a person on the roof with the waters rising and a raft, a boat and a helicopter all come to rescue the person and the person refuses saying "God will rescue me!" and upon perishing goes to heaven and asks God "Why didn't you rescue me?" and he replied "I sent a raft, a boat and a helicopter. What more did you want?"

I think it's important for us to remember that it's not always some miraculous event that shows God's hand in the world, but the mundane.

Offline ChEng

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Re: Christians: Mandated to give it all away and die?
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2010, 08:56:04 PM »
Wow, great thread!  Lots of thought-fodder here.  Special thanks to Dainty for your well-expressed thoughts.

I had not really given this a whole lot of thought - we are commanded to prepare, etc.  That has been enough, until now, I guess :-\

On the "give it away"/"defend the homestead" issue, I have to agree with Dainty (as well as others); I also see multiple answers in the Bible and must conclude that God wants me to consider both options and that He will guide me when the time comes.  Also, like Dainty, I do not think that God will hesitate to the point of me being in trouble from waiting.

On the charity question (which, I understand was not a part of the OT, but charity is a serious part of Christianity, and so...):

Do you grow your own food?  Didn't God command farmers NOT to reap the edges of their field for this very purpose?  The Bible DOES talk about this... something about providing for aliens (wanderers) and widows... it's in the old testament, and I'm not Christian, but I'm SURE it's there.

Sister Wolf, very interesting thought here.  One thing about this, that Mrs. ChEng and I considered as we discussed this thread: this commandment was given to God's people in time of peace and plenty.  We believe that the 10% gleanings (in our case, it would be of both storage and harvest) is not proper for times of disaster.  We are trying to have quite a bit more than we need in storage, just so that we can give MORE than that 10%.  In other words, God wants the 10% for peacetime, but He wants more from us when times are bad (and even if they aren't :P) - We will store up what we can, and allow God to guide us on how best to distribute His part of our stores and harvest, and then again, trust Him to replenish (or stretch, a la the miracles of the loaves and fishes) those assets.