Author Topic: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?  (Read 33771 times)

MarkWhiskey

  • Guest
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2009, 02:06:49 PM »
...Batteries die and need to be charged in radios, too; I guess people forget that....

on that note, I suggest that the unit defaults to passive pass through. so when the voltage gets too low or the battery/usb cable is unplugged then regular analog clear sound is passed through to the earpiece.

it'd suck to miss incoming traffic because the battery died, i'd rather hear, click-whirl-beep and know that the crypto is offline and it's time to change the battery. it'd also be nice as i could wire a switch into the power and turn the unit on and off when i need to without unplugging it, like on a computer's sound card or a scanner or the speakermic connector on the radio in my truck.

also, i'd recommend you go with female connectors on the unit (maybe 1/8" stereo, db9 or rj45) and then people could make their own speaker/mic adapter cables from there. like a tinytrack or a tracker2. 1/8" stereo is probably the cheapest/easiest. and 1/8" stereo to 2x 1/8" mono adapters are cheap.

what/how are you going to do the zeroize button ? i think a 'push and hold these two buttons' would work as long as it's labeled that way on the case.

and because my wife will someday hit the zeroize button while we're miles away from a computer, it'd be nice to be able to do cloning/re-keying via a cable (1/8" stereo to 1/8" stereo straight through would make it easy to find and carry a 'cloning cable')

good stuff! i'd be in for two or three units @ ~$60 probably a few more if we like them.

Offline Ragzilla

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
  • Karma: 8
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2009, 09:43:55 PM »
You make a good point MGySgtScott, the Keep It Simple Stupid axiom does tend to ring true.

Offline doublehelix

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 449
  • Karma: 21
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2009, 06:49:43 PM »
The unit I am proposing is NOT speech inversion (spectral inversion), but a digital vocoder combined with real AES (credit-card-over-the-internet-type) encryption.  Regardless of what Gunny says, this is not going to be broken.

Yes I understand that, I was making an analogy to something in the past that had a similar practical application.

Quote
I was originally thinking I would put it in the headset, but a lot of people started asking for a module, so I said OK.

Module is a much better form factor.

Quote
Too bad.  Maybe I need to peddle my wares elsewhere; sounds like the naysayers are piling on here.
Batteries die and need to be charged in radios, too; I guess people forget that.

You misinterpret my post.  I am not naysaying.  I think it's a good idea.  Having used encrypted digital comms
(P25) they are not without some shortfalls is all I am saying.  And please make the batteries field replaceable
and a common type (NOT CR123 for example)

Quote
So, you get to play with the expensive encrypted toys, but you don't want others to be able to have encrypted voice comms?  Sorry, but I smell a rat.

I don't consider a $300 H/T expensive but YMMV.

The rat you smell isn't me.  I'd be first inline to buy your device.  ;D

Offline CBMS

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
  • Karma: 1
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2009, 06:58:35 PM »
Now While your form is very cool and indeed useful, what about using it alongside of these Freq. Hopping Radios? Imagine Freq. Hopping encrypted radios, I dont think many people would be able to EVER follow your convos.
http://www.trisquare.us/index.html

Offline doublehelix

  • Survivalist Mentor
  • *****
  • Posts: 449
  • Karma: 21
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2009, 07:17:48 PM »
Unfortunately you won't get a fraction of the range from those TriSquare 900mhz radios.

I tested a set at a theme park and they were less than half the range of conventional
 MURS.

The ability to text was handy however, and they MIGHT work in a neighborhood
scenerio if it wasn't too big.

Captaincoolaid

  • Guest
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2009, 10:19:14 PM »
As an ex grunt I would be willing to spend the bux to see how well it works and how quickly I could break it. Let me know when you have working models

Offline Radjoman

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 22
  • Karma: 2
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2009, 10:09:58 PM »
Would this encode/decode on the fly in "real time"? or would it have a delay?

If this system receives a long data burst, then decodes the audio for a delayed playback, then there are likely to be human error problems.

An undisciplined user will have to get used to making very short transmissions.     If a person talks for 15 seconds, during which time the other radio is receiving the data, then the receiving decoder de-crypts it, and then begins the playback of the 15 seconds audio...then the 2nd station turns around and replys,   the turnaround time for a conversation could have to endure 30 -45 seconds of dead time after every transmission.

Its very likely during the long wait the original sender will get anxious, and resend their audio, clobbering the returning radio signal! this will lead to radio chaos, unless all transmissions are very short.  Very similarly, simplex repeaters are hard to get used to.

Hopefully it will be real time system!

Offline JPH

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
  • Karma: 2
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2009, 11:44:25 AM »
Hopefully you got my PM about the radio... I think you are just the person to run that by...

With that said, it is my opinion that THIS IS JUST THE PLACE to think tank your ideas and market them. 

Now my $0.02, MAKE IT WATER PROOF, at lest equal to the Yaesu VX-7R in that it could handle 3m for 30min...


Offline UnderTheRadar

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 231
  • Karma: 15
    • Tactical Woodgas - run your generator on scrap wood
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2009, 09:52:52 PM »
I agree with Master Guns.

Way back in the 80's they told us we had 30 seconds to talk.  Any longer than that and the soviet DF station had a fix and the rocket barrage had already sent enough ordinance to level a grid square.  They did not like us.   ;D

I can't imagine how fast they can lock onto you these days.

Encryption draws attention.  Once you are on the radar you are toast.

Stay under the radar.   8)

UnderTheRadar
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 09:58:33 PM by UnderTheRadar »

Offline JPH

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
  • Karma: 2
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2009, 06:00:37 PM »
backwoods_engineer  is a big boy and I am sure he can defend himself just find but I will just restate once again

we aren't trying to hide from anyone with radar, or hell anyone with DFing gear whether that be .gov or some high speed survival minded HAM with a love for fox hunting....

We all (or at lest we should) know that the government can listen to cellphones hell they can even key word search down range... so if SHTF and they were out to get every survival minded family it wouldn't be hard no mater what communications device you used....

With these accepted facts before us, let me ask you this, would you rather call your wife on a phone or call on the local HAM repeater or over ch19 on a CB and say the S has hit the fan, start packing I am on my way start packing our BOV and BOBs and load the guns and put your foil hat on because they are after us.....

We are talking about privacy not hiding from big brother as ODAs roam the back roads waitting to call in CAS on the members of TSP....


Offline radiomacgyver

  • Senior Survivalist
  • ****
  • Posts: 207
  • Karma: 5
  • Zello handle: radiomacgyver
Re: another idea for short range comms with encryption
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2009, 07:41:12 AM »
I got my hands on 2 Motorola Nextel/Sprint cellphones that have the Direct-Talk feature. (Motorola i560 & i670)

Even if you cancel your contract, you can still use them in the DT mode since you are using them like a walkie-talkie and not using the cell network.

I haven't tested the range, but it's probably around 1/4 mile or so. The only thing with digital communications is the 1/4 second delay you have to wait when you push to talk before you start speaking.



Sandman

  • Guest
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2009, 02:57:46 AM »
Okay, guys, thanks for the feedback so far, but I have some more questions:

1.  If the voice was clear, would cell-phone quality audio be acceptable (kind of "digital-sounding")?
2.  Would it be useful to have an "CALL" or "ALERT" button that would "ping" the other stations in your encrypted comm net?
3.  Would it be useful to be able to do encrypted messaging with the other members of your net by plugging the encryption module into the USB port of a laptop?
4.  What kind of battery life is reasonable?
5.  Do you think the USB-rechargable internal battery is a good idea, or should the thing run off something replaceable, like an "AA" cell?
6.  Would it be useful to have button(s) to switch between two (or more) encryption key numbers, to allow for multiple nets or to "kill" compromised radios?

Your thoughts, please, survival mavens...
Great concept! I love the idea! Yes, proper commo training is needed to ensure security is not wasted, but alas, that's a training issue. SS is the way to go if possible as I believe RDF is under 2 sec. now.

Here's my take on your questions:
1. Cell quality is acceptable.
2. Call button pings are nice as long as noise discipline is maintained.
3. Encrypted messaging thru a laptop is cool. Encrypted messaging via a module to another module on another radio is cooler.
4. 1 common battery change per 24hr continuous stand-by period, and 12hr talk time is acceptable to me.
5. I like rechargeable battery packs (with no special stands) that can be pulled out & replaced by a caddy that holds regular AA batteries. My field solar rechargers laugh at the idea of special battery sizes & voltages.
6. Multiple encryption codes would add a nice versatility. Code reprogramming must be able to be performed without the need for a laptop. Perhaps a key module could also be made. An emergency zero key would be nice, but must be idiot-proof.

Even with encryption, I'd still use one-time pad brevity codes just to stay in practice.

I think some of the arguments mentioned above concern different perceived threats: (and are treated differently)

1. If the threat is an oppressive .gov (like China) that is in a pissy mood & is ready to squash anything that looks at it wrong, then end-users should know this and not use encryption if it might provoke genocide vs. it's innocent citizenry. In such cases, common phrase one-time pads are indicated.

2. If, on the other hand, the threats are gang-bangers trolling the civilian bands looking for easy targets in a crisis, then encryption is certainly the way to go. (provided #1 above is not also in play at that time)

Moral of the story? Know the threats arrayed against you, and secure your communications accordingly.




Offline idelphic

  • I Zgjuari I DynjasĂ«
  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1903
  • Karma: 44
  • Theoretical Conceptualist - Avatar by Ada
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2009, 08:04:38 PM »
Basic Stamp - PIC Portable Program Module.

Could you use the PIC or similar system to build a PC-less programmer?  I don't know if you have seen it or not, but NUE-PSK has a nice little PC-less PSK31 modem.  All you need is the radio, keyboard and the unit.  It is Field upgradable using the new USB module they have, and run pretty nicely.  I have one, though I have not used it recently.

I don't see why you could not build a FPM (Field Programming Unit) that could interface / Charge / etc the SecCom (Security Communications) Unit.

I think what you are proposing is a good idea, and I'll step in line to pony up and test the unit for you.  My Elmer and best friend has told me a number of times that I am a "Conceptual Engineer"...  I can think it,.. Test it, ... and a lot of times break it.. (lol) But I can't engineer it.  I can solder, and I have hack a few things here and there (cell phone battery converted to a Kenwood HT battery pack...)..  So I do know a bit.. 

I really hope you will continue your work,.. 

Offline laser

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 0
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2009, 04:08:23 PM »

I like the concept, I'm still not sure of the legal aspects though. I know the subject is MURS, NOT FRS, but if its ends up in the FRS market please consider the following.


95.193 (FRS Rule 3) Types of communications.
later half of subpoint (2)

Digital data transmissions shall not exceed one
       second
, and shall be limited to no more than one digital
       transmission within a thirty-second period, except that an FRS
       unit may automatically respond to more than one interrogation
       request received within a thirty-second period.

 95.194 (FRS Rule 4) FRS units.
(c) You may not attach any antenna, power amplifier, or other apparatus to
    an FRS unit that has not been FCC certified
as part of that FRS unit.
    There are no exceptions to this rule and attaching any such apparatus
    to a FRS unit cancels the FCC certification and voids everyone's
    authority to operate the unit in the FRS.

laser
AB9MS
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 04:10:31 PM by laser »

Offline laser

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 0
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2009, 08:33:52 AM »
When I got a few minutes I did a bit more research.  MURS allows digital, but only for radios with Built IN digital.
MURS does not allow add-ons.

FCC Rules require that you transmit on a MURS frequency only with a radio model certificated for MURS. You may transmit data communications in MURS only if the radio is certificated for data communications, or of those transmissions otherwise comply with the rules and those transmissions can be imposed on a conventional voice emission. You may not make any internal modifications or additions to a MURS radio to transmit data communications.

The only way around this that I can see if the encryption circuity would have to be included at the time of manufacture of the radio so that it is FCC certified.  There does not appear to be a way to get an external add-on certified. 
laser


Offline idelphic

  • I Zgjuari I DynjasĂ«
  • Dedicated Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 1903
  • Karma: 44
  • Theoretical Conceptualist - Avatar by Ada
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2009, 11:15:26 AM »
...

The only way around this that I can see if the encryption circuity would have to be included at the time of manufacture of the radio so that it is FCC certified.  There does not appear to be a way to get an external add-on certified. 
laser



Don't know how many people are going to be interesting in Part 97 come POST,...  But is good to know.  Thank you for doing the research.

Offline laser

  • Prepper
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Karma: 0
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2009, 06:56:03 AM »
I was just listening to Security Now Podcast #213 "Cracking GSM Cellphones"  Very interesting stuff.  Basically,
for a few thousand dollars anyone can who wants to can listen to cellphone streams.  The encryption cellphones use, although
strong enough back in the early 1980's, is very crackable now days.  I think you would have a MUCH larger market if you sell your data encryption device to cellphone users.  I see an ad campaign aim add company CEOs etc.   A bit of FUD about competitors listening in on their cellphone calls.  The high end company exec. has to make a important call and puts your addon device to the front of his iphone now no one but the person he wants to hear can understand a word.  According to the podcast there are approx. 3 billion GSM cellphones in use 80% of all cellphones.   Thats a BIG market.
laser

Sandman

  • Guest
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2009, 09:05:40 PM »
When I got a few minutes I did a bit more research.  MURS allows digital, but only for radios with Built IN digital.
MURS does not allow add-ons.

FCC Rules require that you transmit on a MURS frequency only with a radio model certificated for MURS. You may transmit data communications in MURS only if the radio is certificated for data communications, or of those transmissions otherwise comply with the rules and those transmissions can be imposed on a conventional voice emission. You may not make any internal modifications or additions to a MURS radio to transmit data communications.

The only way around this that I can see if the encryption circuity would have to be included at the time of manufacture of the radio so that it is FCC certified.  There does not appear to be a way to get an external add-on certified. 
laser


Then perhaps this encryption module could find legal use with the Trisquare SS digital radios mentioned by CBMS above?

http://www.trisquare.us/index.html

Does anyone have any more experience with these units?

Thanks


Scubacat

  • Guest
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2009, 10:36:16 PM »
Sooo...did this just die? Has a product been made?

Sandman

  • Guest
Re: Encrypted MURS Voice Communications?
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2010, 03:06:06 AM »
Sooo...did this just die? Has a product been made?
I haven't heard anything new about an encryption unit, but I have discovered that the TriSquare radios do not actually transmit a digital signal. They transmit an analog signal on a SS freq. hop. The "digital" part of their marketing only covers the SS algorithm. And their SS is not foolproof.