Bugging out - tactical questions

[2paranoid]

One scenario I'm prepping for is the possibility that the coming economic collapse will lead to roving bands of thugs looking for resources. Our 10 acre homestead is pretty self-sufficient and well-stocked, meaning we'll eventually be a target when the food runs out in the metro area and the gangs start moving out into the countryside. I'll spare the details, but we're in a pretty good tactical position here, at least according to the worksheets in Joe Nobody's book - high ground, not visible from the road, surrounded by natural barriers, etc. But eventually, they'll find us, and we need to be ready.

My choice is to stand and fight, or retreat and lay low while they ransack. Given the fact that I have three kids and a wife to look after, my best bet may be to retreat. Not that we are untrained - my wife and two of the kids are Appleseed Riflemen, as am I, and we could theoretically control everything for 400 yards in any direction with four rifles. But punching holes in paper is a much different thing that putting your sights on a human, and I'm not sure any of us could do that. Plus, my fear is that the gangs will be better organized and trained by the time they get here, the riff-raff having been weeded out in a brutal process of artificial selection. We may be outnumbered and outclassed.

I know the solution is community and cross-training, but time is running out. I need a detailed plan for bugging out, but not too far out. I've got 10 acres of terrain to play with, with many natural places to hide out, pre-stage supplies, observe the house, camp out, etc. My idea is that I'll have some warning and have already cleared long-term food preps, weapons and ammo, gear, etc., out of the house and dispersed it in the woods. On "go day," we move out to the woods and keep the house under surveillance until the threat has passed, and hopefully not a single shot is fired. Lather, rinse, repeat.

So, my question is: what resources are there that I can use to plan such things as rally points, ammo caches, LP-OPs, etc.? I'm having no luck searching for "rally point" - I get links to some stupid video games. Is there an Army manual available that I can download that covers the principles I need to understand to make sure my family survives an attack such as I describe?

2p

[nelson96]

I too am in a similar situation, having a young family to look out for.  Our plan is not try and make our rural property work for us, because we know they will eventually come and nothing can stop it.  Knowing they will come, I don't want to take any chances with my families lives, nor do I want to waste resources (time, energy, money) that can be applied elsewhere. . . .  Our plan is to bug in as long as we safely can, and head for the remote high country when it gets dicey.  I'm a hunter that hates to run in to people when I'm hunting, more than I hate not filling my tag, so I know a lot of great places.

When to leave is the tough part, but I buy in to the thought that an economical collapse won't happen over night (not even close).  There will be a lot of markers, starting in the biggest cities, that we will be watching for.   

[2paranoid]

Our long-term survival is tied to this homestead - we can produce much of what we need, and have the community to trade for what we can't. We don't have the resources for a total bug-out retreat, and I don't believe that's a good long term solution anyway - if you don't live there, there's no community, and you'll be considered an outsider by the locals, deed or no deed.

So we're tied to this place, and we'll defend it to the death, because we have no choice. But my goal is to avoid the deaths in the short term, and if that means occasionally bugging out to let the latest scum look around, so be it. That's what I'm prepping for.

[Greekman]

Indeed taking yuo down is easy for a gang. They have only shoot a single bullet at yuor hoem every 5 minutes alla fay and night long. how long can you alst?
And i have never heard of a siege -through the ages- that went well for the defendee....

So spliting and regrouping seems to be the proper action to take.
How about a simple cabin made by the leftover wood by blank making, just for afew days worth of shelter that is.

My reservations is that your place may nto only be targeted once, and there may be several gangs that operate in the area. So you may find the need to live more time at your retreat location than home.
edit 1: Have you thought of installing a surveilance system (alarm & camera) at the ebgining of the road that ends in your property?

Also what I noticed in your 1st post is that your family may shoot well but do yuo knwo anything about small unit tactics?
until someone withreal expereince steps up in this topic I would suggest have a look at military manual that can be found on-line.

edit 2: You may browse in GlobalSecurity.org. It seems it ahs the most extended collection of..
also ahve a look at these if they are of use
B-GL-392-008 - Ambush & Counter-Ambush
FM 7-8 - Infantry Rifle Platoon & Squad
FM 17-98 - Scout Platoon
MCWP 3-11.3 - Scouting & Patroling
MCWP 3-11.2 - Marine Rifle Squad

[nelson96]

Our long-term survival is tied to this homestead - we can produce much of what we need, and have the community to trade for what we can't. We don't have the resources for a total bug-out retreat, and I don't believe that's a good long term solution anyway - if you don't live there, there's no community, and you'll be considered an outsider by the locals, deed or no deed.

So we're tied to this place, and we'll defend it to the death, because we have no choice. But my goal is to avoid the deaths in the short term, and if that means occasionally bugging out to let the latest scum look around, so be it. That's what I'm prepping for.

We've got it pretty good out here in the west.  There are miles and miles of secluded and resource thick land that one can hide in for a very long time (forever if you wanted to) if you have the know-how.  No "locals" to deal with and no deeds to worry about (lots of public land).  Other than my closest friends and family, I plan to get as far way from people as I can. 

What kind of community do you have, that you think it can stop a band of killers?  To quote you "my fear is that the gangs will be better organized and trained by the time they get here".  So will that community be able to survive repeated attacks.  And once they take all that you have, what then?  What will you do if they decide to stay? . . .  It sounds like you're going to have to plan for a fight, and that's the opposite of my plan (given that I have young children).

[hedgewitch]

i suggest the book East of Eden, it has a similar plan, good luck

[2paranoid]

@Greekman: good call on the cameras and electronic surveillance gear. I have an 8 channel DVR system and a good quality motion sensor on the driveway, which forms the backbone of my EWS system. I have the front of the property (most likely approach) fenced, and have materials pre-staged to make that a more formidable barrier. I also have a plan for putting a gate across the driveway, to keep traffic on the driveway controlled. But my big advantage is that I'm the last of three houses on our shared driveway,  so I should have warning from the other two before I get hit.

Re: small unit tactics- not yet. The kids aren't psychologically ready for that, and I have no experience to pass on to them. But those field manual references will sure help- just what I was looking for.

[SheepdogSurvival]

Hear are a few thoughts on the subject.

First off you need more people at your location to achieve the kinda of security that your scenario demands period, preferably people with professional MIL/LE training. Secondly I think we should all reassess the likelihood or non-likihood of this scenario happening. If the situation has degraded to this point and you don't have some kind of outside support you and your family's survival rate quickly drops to almost nil. That said I'm going to attempt to offer some suggestions on how to help deal with the specific scenario you asked about and try to connect them back to reality now as well as for use in more likely scenarios too.

Rally Points. It's a good idea to setup a localized rally point that you and your family can use in the event that your home becomes unavailable due to whatever. Here is a incomplete list of circumstances were a rally point would come in handy.
-Fire
-Flooding
-A home invader while you are away so your kids/wife could flee and wait for you etc (I know they can shoot but what if they are outside in the garden or otherwise away from a weapon).
-A quantified, specific large scale threat such as an organized gang attack.

Bugging out.  For the gang attack scenario or any large scale violent threat you need to understand that the situation has crossed a debarkation line past what you and your family are capable of handling. You said that their are two other house holds before you, if the situation gets that dire you are need to coordinate with your neighbors once it does so that all of the localized households can meet at the rally point and formulate a defense from a nearby position or counter attack. You MUST coordinate with your neighbors, or local town/community or bring in your own extra security.
If you bugout you need to have someplace to go that has other resources and preferably people you can count on. Taking your family into the wilderness is not a very good option, granted it's better than staying and getting killed though depending on the time of year/weather etc you or your family could just as easily die from exposure/sickness/starvation. Get involved with your community today and get to know your neighbors and the people in your area, the people in the two houses on the way to your place are not a buffer, they are your life line.

You seem to have most of your EWS and security setup pretty well, the stuff Joe Nobody discusses in his books could be pretty helpful in this regard as well. I can't really offer any advice/opinions since I don't know your situation. If you really see the scenario that you painted playing out you could do the following to help prepare:
-Like I said, community, community, community.....
-Learn to be a good negotiator and barter with others, your network and social skills are worth more than a warehouse full of preps in your scenario.
-Have extra food, lots of extra food. Their are plenty of MIL/LEO trained guys like me out there who may not have a suitable place to go or the space/ability to store an adequate amount of food. Right now it would cost you a min of $500/day to hire someone to do high risk security work, but if food was scarce I would easily accept a small room (even in a barn) and a daily food ration. How do you know if you can trust outside security? Build community, build your network.
-Get enough guns and ammo to arm your neighbors, again have enough food and medicine to keep them alive and on your side too.
-Have a secondary cache of supplies, weapons, bugout/camping gear somewhere hidden and hidden from your house you could access so you could either retreat to some place else with those supplies or mount a counter attack(bring friends if possible). This also creates redundancy in the event that your house burns down or is taken out by a tornado etc.. this way you don't loss all your precious preps.
-Create hidden spaces within your house, this will help keep your supplies away from burglars and slow down how fast your home is looted if anyone is already inside. This could enable you to retreat from your home if a gang is inbound and may enable some of your stuff in the house to remain safe. 

-Develop a sensible retreat plan that involved a rapid retreat in the hills away from danger as soon as the bad guys show up and leave a full liquor cabinet so the bad guys will get nice and drunk. Then leave your family in a temporary bivouac location to hide out. Meetup with some friends and form a QRF (quick reaction force). Complete a hasty mission plan with the rest of your QRF. Attack your house with your QRF team around 330am. Things that you may want to consider are:
*Having maps and photos of your house pre-staged at your retreat location.
*Have firearms as well as handheld weapons(axes/tomahawks, machetes, bayonets etc)  pre-staged since you probably would want to kill as many of the gang members as possible with stealth.
*Have breaching tools (sledge hammer and crowbar) pre-staged.
*Have some one on your QFR team that is familiar with this sort of operation.

Couple of more things, like nelson said it's not likely to happen overnight. And since you don't know what the best course of action will be in a largely unknown situation you should concentrate on providing yourself with as many tools as you can to deal with whatever comes up the biggest one being your network and community. And secondary creating some redundancy in where you store your preps and can retreat to. If the situation develops then just keep your planning process ahead of the situation. It wont be hard to convince your neighbors and community to take more aggressive security measures if the shit is hitting the fan in such a big way. Don't waste your time planning unrealistic situations. How does my family and I survive an organized highly disciplined attack from a sizable force without outside help? is akin to how to I defend myself from a helicopter attack with small arms....it aint going to happen so don't waste time on it.

Also listen to Jack's interview with Selco for some additional information on this topic.

[nelson96]

@ SheepdogSurvival

Very good advice, well done.  The only thing I would disagree on is your point about retreating to the wilderness.  With ample training and preparation, I feel a family could do very well.  And it may take a lot less time and resources to prepare for, while lending itself very well in a non combative scenario.  That said, I still stand on my suggestion, in the event that you can not count on the "community, community, community" required to pull off what you suggest. . . .  For me, my family and friends are just too sacred to count on other civilians to complete such a difficult task as you suggest.  Any wrong move from any individual would most certainly create loss of life. 

I will add, that once I know my family is safe and can take care of themselves, I will be the first one to offer my help to control an invading hoard and/or such.  As a person very comfortable in the woods, I suppose my efforts would be best suited as a militia member fighting in rural areas.  Large cities scare me even in so-called peace time. 

[SheepdogSurvival]

@ SheepdogSurvival

Very good advice, well done.  The only thing I would disagree on is your point about retreating to the wilderness.  With ample training and preparation, I feel a family could do very well.  And it may take a lot less time and resources to prepare for, while lending itself very well in a non combative scenario.  That said, I still stand on my suggestion, in the event that you can not count on the "community, community, community" required to pull off what you suggest. . . .  For me, my family and friends are just too sacred to count on other civilians to complete such a difficult task as you suggest.  Any wrong move from any individual would most certainly create loss of life. 

I will add, that once I know my family is safe and can take care of themselves, I will be the first one to offer my help to control an invading hoard and/or such.  As a person very comfortable in the woods, I suppose my efforts would be best suited as a militia member fighting in rural areas.  Large cities scare me even in so-called peace time.

Thanks!

My comments are general in nature pertaining to a very wide range of circumstances. Anyways I've run into a lot of people who think they are great wilderness survivalists who aren't  and I've seen some pretty competent woodsmen go down from injury or infection etc.. The wilderness can be very unforgiving as I'm sure you know. Although it would be possible to head for the hills for a season in some circumstances I still stand by my opinion that it is generally a bad idea for most people. But part of why I feel that way is because there are very few people in the lower 48 even have access to any wilderness areas remote enough to support the idea of hiding out away from gangs/raiders. Furthermore I feel it will be essential to have ~90% of your food preposition-ed or brought in with you since I feel poaching etc will have decimated the game populations etc. Also I encourage anyone considering a long-ish wilderness survival to have a good size stash of antibiotics if you have not already done so.

Basically even though we have a little different opinion that's all it is...an opinion because I think we'd both agree that no matter what choice we make if things ever get that bad all of us will have to fight tooth and nail for our very survival only difference will be what our foe will be.

[nelson96]

there are very few people in the lower 48 even have access to any wilderness areas remote enough to support the idea of hiding out away from gangs/raiders.

Ever been out west?  There are lots of places that even a local wouldn't go.  In all reality, I believe it wouldn't take getting much off the beaten path.  I believe the gangs/raiders will on the most part stick to the main highways. . . .  It's funny.  I once invited a guy from Vermont to elk hunt with us.  He was amazed at how much dense land we have that has such limited access.  He also expected that most of our tree's were all logged off and/or burned in wild fires.  This was based on the local news footage. . .  I've horse packed all over Oregon and Northern California for weeks at a time, and never stepped foot on the same trail twice (or crossed a road).

It will be common thinking like he had, and yours, that will make our hills a great place to hide out.

Furthermore I feel it will be essential to have ~90% of your food preposition-ed or brought in with you since I feel poaching etc will have decimated the game populations etc.

I have the same ability as you to stock food and supplies at a BOL.  Personally, I also have the ability (and so could anyone) to transport supplies from my BIL to my BOL via my stock trailer and horse trailer when it appears the time is right.  As for the wildlife being decimated and leaving me with no food; the gangs/raiders will have decimated the people that bugged-in before that happens.

Also I encourage anyone considering a long-ish wilderness survival to have a good size stash of antibiotics if you have not already done so.

By the time things have gotten to the point where gangs/raiders are a problem, and I've made a decision to bug-out, everyone will have the need of their antibiotic stashes.  I don't see my conditions any different than yours.  Mine may be less so, given that I won't be getting shot up as much and dealing with the extreme damage of a gun shot wound.

Basically even though we have a little different opinion that's all it is...an opinion because I think we'd both agree that no matter what choice we make if things ever get that bad all of us will have to fight tooth and nail for our very survival only difference will be what our foe will be.

So true.  I'll only add that yours is a little less predictable.


It's obvious we are both passionate about the decisions we THINK we will make.  Based on the differences of experience, we should agree to disagree.

[The Professor]

Very good advice, well done.  The only thing I would disagree on is your point about retreating to the wilderness.  With ample training and preparation, I feel a family could do very well.  And it may take a lot less time and resources to prepare for, while lending itself very well in a non combative scenario. 

While I don't presume to speak for the man, I might suggest that Les Stroud would argue that point.

Watch a couple of seasons of Survivorman.  Very few times  have I seen him not have problems with food procurement.

Now, in your situation, that can be remedied by the placement of various caches.  But to just walk into the wilderness and expect to live there?  Hell, not even the legendary mountain man went into the mountains without LOTS of food.

Try it for a week and then see what your results are.  You might want to start considering where to bury those 55-gallon drums.

The Professor

[nelson96]

While I don't presume to speak for the man, I might suggest that Les Stroud would argue that point.

Watch a couple of seasons of Survivorman.  Very few times  have I seen him not have problems with food procurement.

Now, in your situation, that can be remedied by the placement of various caches.  But to just walk into the wilderness and expect to live there?  Hell, not even the legendary mountain man went into the mountains without LOTS of food.

Try it for a week and then see what your results are.  You might want to start considering where to bury those 55-gallon drums.

I can understand this coming from a person without experience, but anybody willing to learn could have ample experience.  I have tried it for a week, much more than a week in fact.  I spend my summers camping and my fall & winters hunting in the very locations I will bug-out to.  I've lived in the country all my life and spent much of that in the woods from a very young age.  There are pockets miles from the nearest road that have beautiful fields of grass, year long water and plenty of cover to build a cabin in (I might even have one built ).  There are also many cabins left from the days of mining that are still habitable that you can get to with a 4x4.

Are you really using the "legendary mountain man " Les Stroud as an example, really?  Guys like him are paid celebreties made to entertain urban folk, who most certainly lives in the city as well (just a guess).  If you're going to use a t.v. reference, at least use something like the show Mountain Men.

I'm not sure why some people have such a guard when it comes to this thought.  Our pioneers did it, some of which coming from the city.  Yes, many didn't make it, but more did.  This is how the west was won.

I love this discussion, keep them coming if you like.

@ 2paranoid . . . .  I hope you're getting some good reference from all this, I don't mean to be getting off subject if that's what it is.

[Greekman]

@Greekman: good call on the cameras and electronic surveillance gear. I have an 8 channel DVR system and a good quality motion sensor on the driveway, which forms the backbone of my EWS system. I have the front of the property (most likely approach) fenced, and have materials pre-staged to make that a more formidable barrier. I also have a plan for putting a gate across the driveway, to keep traffic on the driveway controlled. But my big advantage is that I'm the last of three houses on our shared driveway,  so I should have warning from the other two before I get hit.

Re: small unit tactics- not yet. The kids aren't psychologically ready for that, and I have no experience to pass on to them. But those field manual references will sure help- just what I was looking for.

It is a reference point. A way to learn to ask the proper questions, not learn the "art"

Regarding surveilance, what i meant was to wire yuor early waring way further (to get an appreciable warning). In effect in the bedn oen turn on the shared driveway (maybe camera in the turn and a buzzer after the house closer to you)

Nelson and sheeepdog gave very good advice.....

BTW what does this kind of questions always bring back "Lights Out" to me?

[endurance]

My two cents is that a good community with good communications can do very well at deterring bad guys.  If any incursion into the perimeter of homes is met with an overwhelming response, the losses will quickly exceed the potential gain and greener pastures will be sought.  It wouldn't take much for a relatively small community to set themselves up with Ham, CB or even FRS radios so every home had a way of alerting others and a system of rallying an organized response.  This is particularly true for a community where there's a very limited number of ways in and out where chokepoints on the road can be monitored or controlled. 

[Cedar]

I lived in the bush in a cabin for years... not everyone belongs out there. Especially the ones who have the romance of living in the wilderness. Those are the ones who usually die first. You have to watch every step, think out 2 moves ahead.. even for moving hay for animals at -40F. One slip and break a leg and you could write yourself off. Under normal circumstances, the wilderness weeds people out one way or another. Most bug out back 'home'.

Can it be done? Yes. It will be tough. But even the best most ultimate guru of the wilderness.. with one little mistake s/he will be dead. As much training/experience as I have had for a couple decades, it would be my last resort to head to the bush/forest/mountains, especially with my 2 yr old daughter.

nelson is right. Where we live we have large amounts of wilderness we could melt into and never see another person for a very very long time. An hours walk for me from my house could get me there. Say I had to get up into that area today, it is already below freezing at night some nights. Soon it will be every day. The snow lasted until May this year. Most people would get hypothermia before they probably even got their shelter built, unless they already had one made in advance.

10 acres is not that much. If someone was looking for you, you would probably be ferreted out fairly quickly.

What happened during/after Katrina? Inner cities looted, did the countryside get it then or later as people expanded outward? How far out is your 10 acres?

I agree on community. The problem is most of our like minded community are not next door neighbors.

Cedar

[nelson96]

My two cents is that a good community with good communications can do very well at deterring bad guys.  If any incursion into the perimeter of homes is met with an overwhelming response, the losses will quickly exceed the potential gain and greener pastures will be sought.  It wouldn't take much for a relatively small community to set themselves up with Ham, CB or even FRS radios so every home had a way of alerting others and a system of rallying an organized response.  This is particularly true for a community where there's a very limited number of ways in and out where chokepoints on the road can be monitored or controlled.

I whole heartedly agree with this, but how hard is it to get your neighbors signed on for a task that ultimately would require them training, enough training so that they could effectively communicate and kill?  I would think this would be pretty easy once the SHTF and these gangs of killers are busting down doors, but then it's too late.  And really, how many neighbors do you have (a group of say 20?) and could they hold off a gang of 50 crazy killers that already have experience with killing towns people such as yours and have nothing to lose?

Yes it can be done . . .  I'm just saying there are other options that don't require dependency on a large group and/or gun fire.  Especially if you are in an area with mild climate, which I'm lucky enough to live in.  This is something you obviously make plans and train for, just like you are doing now in your other preps.

My predictions are that these gangs (being the worst case scenario that probably won't happen) will stick to the main highways, attacking towns and homes close by.  I believe they will not be heading up logging roads and such looking for single camps to rob. 

As Cedar said . . . . 

I agree on community. The problem is most of our like minded community are not next door neighbors.

If you have a home that is stand alone and/or a community that exists such as endurance mentions, then you have a good chance and I too would stick it out.  If it's close to a main highway or city . . .  Head for the hills.

[Cedar]

My predictions are that these gangs (being the worst case scenario that probably won't happen) will stick to the main highways, attacking towns and homes close by.  I believe they will not be heading up logging roads and such looking for single camps to rob. 

People tend to be lazy and it is hard work getting up out hills and mountains.

Cedar

[nelson96]

People tend to be lazy and it is hard work getting up out hills and mountains.

IF (big if) it comes to this, it will be like a profession to them.  They will hone their skills, just like we will, and work toward the highest return on investment.

[Cedar]

I still think that will be the few and not the majority. But yes.. there will be enough of them.

Cedar

[sdcharger]

You need to adopt some Marines.

[The Resident Misanthrope]

You need to adopt some Marines.

You mean some Soldiers.

[flippydidit]

Depending on how far you wanted to take the "bug in" at all costs method, you may want to consider the following:

If these gangs of ruthless killers have made it to your place in the country, they will likely have developed their tactics based on "soft targets" (townsfolk, elderly, etc).  Theoretically, if your group is not a "soft target", their advantage is lost (almost completely).  Here are some thoughts to get you thinking along planning for this possibility (remote possibility).  This is based on the OP's information (10 acres, etc).

Your home (largest structure) will likely be the bullseye for their assault.  Let them have it.  Pull back to a defensive perimeter that YOU define.  Now THEY are in a siege predicament.  Maybe have a gas line that runs to your house.  Maybe that line is set up with being able to pump chlorine gas into the home.  Do you have a pool?  Just a thought.  You could initiate the pump at "O'Dark Thirty" (3:30 AM) as previously mentioned.  Make sure they're snoozing from all that booze you left them.

If you aren't intent on killing every last one of them, give them an incentive to leave your home.  Don't wait for them to drink and pass out.  Immediately hit them with your "It's in your best interest to get out of my house plan".  You know the exits.  Cover them with gunfire.  Although with proper planning, shots may not even need to be fired.  It really comes down to how you can affect them psychologically.  Or at least, that's a preferred option.  There are a myriad of choices that you can develop to plan for these contingencies.  Put yourself in their position.  Think it through with options/choices that YOU as the defender give them.

You really should develop a network of people who will be at your location and work with them.  Pulling security 24/7 with one family is not going to work.  I also recommend the advice given on seeking out prior or active military members.  You should give preference to those in combat arms branches, that have combat experience, but don't write off any of them if they do not.

My advice is for entertainment purposes only.  Do not do anything illegal.  Especially do not install a minefield or build sentry guns/set guns.   

When all else fails, your lives are more important than "stuff".  Get out if it's that bad.

[sdcharger]

You mean some Soldiers.

No offense to any other types of soldiers but I was specifically referring to adopting some Marines.

[livinitup0]

in this kind of situation I would not want to be in a rural area.... id suggest looking at some of the REAL accounts from people during the argentinian collapse. The countryside was far more dangerous simply because theres a lack of manpower to band together.

For me, i'll stick to the citry for a while unless im nearly positive the country is going to be safer since this has shown (in situations that have actually happened) to be the best idea.

[Big_Al]

Google FM 101-5-1 operational terms and graphics. 

Get an aerial shot of your land, and do what the manual suggests. 

The term OAKOC is covered in the manual.  If you want piece of mind, look at your own land like an attacker would.  At what point on the ground will they discover your property?  This point is called an inter-visibility line.  It's the point they actually see your house, and possibly the most critical.

Lets say I'm a biker looter wanting to eject you from the house.  I don't care either way if your in the house or not, I'm coming cause I'm hungry.  I've already took some hits and lost some of my crew, and have gotten smarter about looting rural homes.  I found that bum rushing a rural house causes too many casualities, unlike an urban house, where we just rush right in.  So I'm going to take my time, not too much time cause my bros are hungry too.  I'm going to stop there.

Take about a month and read the manual, and good luck! 

The best time to defeat an attacker is to make sure he never has the chance to attack in the first place, or your not around when you know they see you.  Slugging it out is the least preferred option as any loss of a family member based on some dreamed up Rambo scenario would devastate the average person psychologically.

Squat and hold if you know an attack is imminent is insane with a family.  The trick then is to set out detection devices, rehearse evac plan, have at least 4 caches in each cardinal direction at least 600 meters away (and is out of sight and earshot of your house), and disperse.  Have a rally point if everyone gets separated that is near water and off a secondary road. 

Thermal camera with marine deep cycle battery solar panel at the IV line, a wireless motion detector with the camera, and plan the evac. 

It's really too much to even discuss, as the likely hood of this happening seems so slim. 

[Wildthang]

Well I live in a rural area that is pretty wide open, and it is easy to see what's coming. Plus everybody around me are farmers and gun enthusiasts. When the weather is warm, it sounds like  a war has broke loose because everybody is out shooting targets. I am in the middle of a 5 mile radius of farmers with guns. They are all good honest people and i am not worried about them.
I could be wrong, but if a gang of robbers and looters come to my neck of the woods, they are going to get in a heck of a mess knowing all of the people that live around me.
I am thinking that if we all ban together and guard our perimeters, and work together, it would be a real challenge for the gangs to survive this area. I suppose they may finally wear us down, but beleive me, it would take them a while to do that!

[livinitup0]

Well I live in a rural area that is pretty wide open, and it is easy to see what's coming. Plus everybody around me are farmers and gun enthusiasts. When the weather is warm, it sounds like  a war has broke loose because everybody is out shooting targets. I am in the middle of a 5 mile radius of farmers with guns. They are all good honest people and i am not worried about them.
I could be wrong, but if a gang of robbers and looters come to my neck of the woods, they are going to get in a heck of a mess knowing all of the people that live around me.
I am thinking that if we all ban together and guard our perimeters, and work together, it would be a real challenge for the gangs to survive this area. I suppose they may finally wear us down, but beleive me, it would take them a while to do that!

just my $0.02 but hopefully they're all prepping too... or otherwise it wont be the roaving gangs... but how much food/water, resources and skills there are to go around that does you guys in.

[Wildthang]

They all have cattle, gardens, chickens and some have hogs. They are preppers they just don't know it!

[Big_Al]

Well I live in a rural area that is pretty wide open, and it is easy to see what's coming. Plus everybody around me are farmers and gun enthusiasts. When the weather is warm, it sounds like  a war has broke loose because everybody is out shooting targets. I am in the middle of a 5 mile radius of farmers with guns. They are all good honest people and i am not worried about them.
I could be wrong, but if a gang of robbers and looters come to my neck of the woods, they are going to get in a heck of a mess knowing all of the people that live around me.
I am thinking that if we all ban together and guard our perimeters, and work together, it would be a real challenge for the gangs to survive this area. I suppose they may finally wear us down, but beleive me, it would take them a while to do that!

-Wildthang

Talk about resurrecting the dead, but I saw this and have to give two sense.

Can I come to your place if SHTF?  Just kidding, it sounds like you have a great community. 

I don't have nearly the neighbors you do, but have managed to connect with a few that hunt, fish, can food,etc... You should get them together and have a big barbeque.