Author Topic: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?  (Read 11338 times)

Offline soupbone

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2012, 12:52:45 PM »
.....Lots of people seem to think if they just squirrel away enough guns and ammo they can get through anything. I've personally witnessed the fallout of all kinds of failed societies, and while prepping for some kind of multi-decade anarchy can't hurt, the reality is that there is very little modern or historic precedent for this sort of situation. Some sort of order is always restored. The big question is what that order will look like, who will be in charge, and what the new rules will be....
...In the case of the coming economic collapse, the thing to remember is that we're not going to be talking about post world war europe or japan, or north africa at the end of the cold war. The bridges and roads will be here, the power plants will not be destroyed, even if they are switched off for a while. If there is disorder it won't be forever.  If things happen the way they typically do with runaway inflation and other such nonsense, you'll get civil disorder, possible government change - but someone will step in and restore order....
....Few people here have ever heard a shot fired in anger. You will not see the kind of heavily armed posses here that we ran into in Somalia, and that still are at it over there....
....My friend's great grandfather got his family to safety with one flintlock pistol, haviing never fired a shot. Now if that's not your bag and you fancy yourself to be John Rambo and think you can fight for decades without taking one, by all means, store up thousands of rounds and all, but I think that's a stupid waste of resources.
....Remember too that without access to serious, hard-core medical care, and that right away, you're dead if you take even a relatively minor hit....
....So much talk by preppers about about ammo and guns, and I seldom see any real thought about what the implications of needing of that are. Do you really expect to fight Hamburger Hill at your home, day after day, year after year, and survive that? Ask any real soldier and he'll tell you you're nuts. Get the hell out of that situation.
....There is no hard and fast rule about this and I'm likely to take a lot of flak for my opinion, as the conventional prepping wisdom seems to be that you should stockpile and fight your way through it like Rambo. I think most of the people who think this way have probably never been in a real firefight or a real war or seen what real anarchy looks like, and are wedded to romantic ideas about defending their property and their rights and all that kind of thing. All noble thoughts and all, but I would argue that if survival is your primary objective then you should be avoiding conflict, and trying more than anything else to find a place to live where you're not going to get shot at every day....

Bravo, cptd, excellent post, +1 for it. Sometimes it is necessary to inject a strong dose of realism into threads - something that you have just done, based on first-hand experience, not on war stories, the latest 'survivalist' guru's opinion, too much testosterone, etc., etc.  While firearms are important within the prepper mindset, they should never be the paramount concern. You feel you need a firearm - go buy a .22 and a couple of bricks of good ammo - spend the rest of the money on stuff that will keep you alive - water purification, means of heating your residence if the power goes out, extra food, good shoes or boots, seeds and garden tools, etc. Just ask the folks on Staten Island what they would have found more useful, a water filter and a couple cases of MREs, or an AR with all of the goodies.

You might find it interesting [ ;)] to go through some of the older threads, especially the ones dealing with securing your property, defending your BOL, and the like. One of my favorites started out with the statement, "I've never been in the military, so I'll pass this question on. My team sniper wants to know which is better............" My ensuing groan prompted the Mrs. to ask if I was having another heart attack.  ::)

"There is no hard and fast rule about this and I'm likely to take a lot of flak for my opinion..." : From whom? Certainly not from those who have been there and done that. There is such a thing as a Prepper Sheeple - blindly following the 'experts' the same way the grasshopper follows the politicians.

Thanks again for a great post.

soupbone
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Offline Saint-TyR

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2012, 01:16:17 PM »
"There is no hard and fast rule about this and I'm likely to take a lot of flak for my opinion..." : From whom? Certainly not from those who have been there and done that. There is such a thing as a Prepper Sheeple - blindly following the 'experts' the same way the grasshopper follows the politicians."


Well said... I see it all the time where people will spend their time and money following the experts advice.  When common sense and critical thinking is all they need. There is no hard list on what and how much ammo/weapons you should have on hand. It will be different for everyone depending on location and use. We keep it simple two weapons each of the same make and model (in different platforms ie shotgun, ar, rifle, handgun). Then enough ammo for hunting and protection for each platform. As an individual we have enough for a year but as a community we have enough to make a difference.

Stay safe!
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Offline CR Williams

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2012, 09:09:21 AM »
Very excellent comments. I'll add this bit:

You want enough to be able to practice enough to maintain skill your weapons, and enough to be able to go to a class without having to find out whether nearby stores have what you need, and you need enough to sustain those activities for some time in the event of shortages. One thing a lot of people don't realize, however, is that you don't need to continually run live-fire exercises to maintain skill-sets with the weapons. 90% of what you need to know about weapon-handling can be practiced empty. That could reduce your 'draw' on stocks dramatically if there were some sudden cut-off. Also, premium ammunition should be rotated, but doesn't have to be rotated very often. Most modern-produced ammunition is good for storage for a long time even outside of temperature-controlled environments. So that can also last longer if you need it to.

I would suggest you develop a rough tally of what you normally fire in practice in a year and add an average intermediate-level gunfighting class' worth of ammunition to that (varies with the class, but I would suggest 300 rounds lower limit and average of 5-700 for a two day class). Using what I have heard to be the engineer's rule of thumb, double that number, add 50%, and use that as a minimum. This the minimum for practice ammunition.

For actual defensive carry ammunition, I like more rather than less. Still, it is less likely to be expended in quantity than practice ammo. I would suggest enough to fill every magazine for a given weapon you have and at least half-again that amount extra, preferably double.

.22s are a special case, as they're cheap still and the round can be pressed to a lot of uses even if it's not best suited for some of them. I'd get a lot of that.

That said, my personal formula is (Lots x 2)+(Lots/2)=not quite, but just about enough.
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Offline DrJohn

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2012, 09:22:48 AM »
Lots of great info here.  But what if instead of the demise of the 2nd Amendment, they just make it very difficult to get ammo?  What does Jack call a gun with no ammo again...
"In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security.
They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all - security,
comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again."
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Offline Wildthang

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2012, 11:01:08 AM »
My standard answer to the orginal question would be, a lot of .22 ammo for hunting and elliminating varmints, and enough assult rifle ammo for the first 2 shoot outs. After that you will not need any more ammo at all! ;D

Offline SheepdogSurvival

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2012, 07:39:16 PM »
You can never have too much unless you have to carry it or swim with it  ;).
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
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Offline Big_Al

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2012, 08:25:16 PM »
I've reflected a little on this post and it got the wheels turning.

If you have to use more than 1 magazine (presume 20-30 rounds), and actually survive the encounter, then you need to consider leaving to a friends house, getting the community together, or going to a BOL for a while. The implications of that statement has really got me considering my alternatives and current plan.

If you have to use a magazine to defend your home=bad situation=iffy law and order=you just advertised to the community that you have a rifle with ammo. Either you continue to go it alone after this experience (not advised), talk to your neighbors who you already established own firearms and are willing to hole up together (a little better option), call a friend who says no gun play is taking place in his community (temp solution), or go to a communal rural BOL location (semi-perm solution).

In any case getting away from the violence is advised, or mitigating the likely hood it will happen.
You only will have so much energy, so you must develop a community to help.

It's not so much about how much ammo you have, but the planning you put in place to ensure what you have is easily available, dispersed to prevent theft of all you have, and flexible to keep more options open than the bad people trying to kill you and take your stuff have. If you have more options it creates flexibility.

Ammo must be distributed in house, garage, cars, friends house, at BOL, and buried along egress routes in caches. Having hundreds/thousands of rounds in one location just gives the bad guys something to talk about over your dead body. Storing ammo in this plan calls for a hell of a lot more magazines than I currently have lol.

Your always going to be reacting to an antagonizers attack, and the attacker always sets the time place direction tempo of the fight. Having distro'd ammo caches gives you an advantage, because an attacker can only carry so much. Look at the route you would be traveling. Cars break down. Magazines and equipment through fear or adreneline get dropped. Putting caches around just makes sense.

Thanks for the post, it's got me thinking about not how much to have stored, but what to do with what I already have.

"you can do everything right and still fail, chance and the enemy get a vote"
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Offline chrisdfw

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2012, 08:58:39 AM »
You can never have too much unless you have to carry it or swim with it  ;).

Or you are on fire

Offline Steve Cover

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2012, 12:02:04 PM »
Bugging In?

That in itself raises questions relevant to stored supplies.

First of which is your venue.
Is your residence a single family house out in the country, or do you live in a condo in town.

Security
Is your residence actually defendable (fortress) or easily overrun by hoards of starving grasshoppers (Zombies)?
Can you defend and support yourself over an extended siege?

Group affiliations.
Are you alone or part of an organized community?

You will have to take all of these into consideration.

So far the members of this group have given you lots of good advice.
I don't need to parrot it here except to say take a good look at your situation.

Personally, I favor spreading out my reserves.

Let us know what (and why) you decide.

(We all learn from these discussions)

Steve
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Offline Mexican_Hippie

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2012, 01:45:00 PM »
Just a few things to factor into your decision making...

Guns
Getting into reloading will help you with long term self reliance.  You may also want to weigh the expense of having tons of ammo against having  a modest cache of ammo, a couple suppressors and some reloading equipment.

Alternatives
I would always reach for a modern firearm for defending against other humans.  But for everything else you use a gun for there are alternatives that don't require ammo.

For hunting you can also look into crossbows and bow hunting.  They're quiet, arrows/bolts are reusable, and they work. 

Offline Northern-Lights

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2013, 04:55:50 PM »

Remember too that without access to serious, hard-core medical care, and that right away, you're dead if you take even a relatively minor hit. I've been shot three times. I survived all three times because of the speed with which I was removed from the battlefield and transported to a safe placce to get good medical care. If you don't have a medevac unit ready, and you get shot in the arm or the leg or the foot or whatever in a firefight, all the other guy has to do is wait for you to bleed out.


I'm far from being an expert on anything.....but I recognize good stuff when I see it (most of the time).  CPTD made a great post....and his little bit above doesn't get near the recognition in prepping circles as is should.  I used to be an EMT......that license lapsed many years ago.  My thoughts to medical and dental care during an economic collapse (which I predict will happen) are that doctors and dentists will be precious indeed.

Even a small scratch can kill you if don't have the right stuff.  A bad tooth or a cavity will put you down quick as well.  Getting shot?  If competent medical care isn't with you in less than an hour.....then you will have an excellent chance to see God face to face in most cases. 

I however do see the need for more than just a "basic load".  I foresee armed gangs moving around and taking whatever they want.  I personally see the need for defense groups to be formed in neighborhoods or in BOLs.   Here is my (uneducated and only been there once) opinion.

I think a minimum of 2000 rounds for your defense rifle if it's a semi-automatic variety is not unreasonable.  Maybe 250 rounds for your handgun which includes some practice ammo.  Where I am re-thinking some is in a shotgun.  My next firearm purchase will be a tactical shotgun.  Ya, I have an 870 for hunting......but a tactical gun with extended tube and tactical slide-grip can be worth it's weight in gold.  Racking the gun one handed (assuming you've been wounded) isn't easy with the standard wooden slide grip.  A tactical sling and about 500 rounds of 00 buckshot should be a minimum I think. 

I may be off on numbers of what to have on hand.  I like to personally have more than what I just posted.  But, I figure bartering will be the name of the game so I will have extra.  That said, don't go crazy and not get the other things you will need.
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Offline TwoCorOne8b11

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2013, 11:07:26 PM »
Well, I've heard it said a good Jew answers a question with a question. So... How many weeks/months of food do you have? Have you gotten a good invertor and a big battery to use your car to power your house? (compliments, steven harris). Have you laid up a good supply of water and/or a good way to filter or purify water? The answer is likely yes on those, but if it's not, I'd concentrate on those first.

Yes, cover defense. As for me, I've got umm... I dunno, lol. 1300'ish 22, as much for practice and barter as for anything else. maybe 250 9mm, of which about 150 are defensive. Quite a few boxes of shotgun shells, focusing mostly on what works on doves and turkeys*, as that's what we have a lot of around here. I wouldn't pass up a starling though if I was hungry. Oh, I have quite a few slugs for the SG too, as we have quite a lot of deer around here. Also handy for two-legged rats, as Jack puts it.

Add in a good fishing pole, and a cast net... There's some more quality protein.

I would say that if we EVER get back to where you can get bricks of 22 easy and whatever counts as cheap then, I'm going to start buying a couple a month. Then when the next dictator gun-hating president comes into office, I'm going to take them to a gun show and do some trading.  ;)

TwoCor

*(the feathered fowl kind, not some politicians who should be tarred and feathered since they're foul)

Why are we survival prepping? Well, each and every minute, the U.S. government accumulates approximately $2.5 million in additional debt. We did the math...

Offline mortgageboss

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2013, 07:50:52 AM »
Just for fun a while back, I loaded up an LBE with what I thought a combat load should be.

It was so heavy, I doubted I would be able to move very fast.  I've since trimmed it down a lot.  I don't think I need to pack 500 + rounds.

As for what to store in the home, I say as much as you can afford or as the spouse will allow. 

Offline 11 Bravo

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Re: Bugging in and how much ammo to store?
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2013, 08:06:38 AM »
Just for fun a while back, I loaded up an LBE with what I thought a combat load should be.

It was so heavy, I doubted I would be able to move very fast.  I've since trimmed it down a lot.  I don't think I need to pack 500 + rounds.

As for what to store in the home, I say as much as you can afford or as the spouse will allow.

Dammnnnnnn......,your old school.... :D

I still have mine from my infantry days in the early '90s. Tried it out a few weeks back....Loaded mags, weapon, canteens filled, goodies in the butt pack, ruck on my back......yep, it sucks even more 22 years later.
1st-30th Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division