Author Topic: This is Token from show 1755  (Read 5351 times)

Offline Token

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This is Token from show 1755
« on: March 30, 2016, 09:51:22 AM »
Hi there, this is Token from show 1755. I'll check in here to try to help people or answer more in depth questions (please keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, I just gave them lots of money over my 11 years of non-state, outside the system marriages). I'm working insane hours right now, so I will do my best to get to everyone in a timely-ish fashion.

I don't mind answering questions about my family/personal life (I'll answer a few I get all the time super fast- yes, we are all together. Yes, we share a bedroom. We have a king and a full bed smushed next to each other, and three blankets because we are all irrepressible blanket thieves. No, the closets are not big enough for three adults. Yes, my husband knows he's a lucky man to have two wives. He's also massively unlucky to have two wives. Think about that one! ;D ), but I will probably ignore super personal questions, especially about our sexy-grown-up times.

My wife is awesome. She does not like being treated like a medical freak show. There is lots of information out there about intersexed people, and transgender issues, and I'm more than happy to talk about them in general, but not about her specifics.

I hope I can help some of you out there!

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2016, 09:59:28 AM »
I never thought of one's sex ,or lack of it,as a survival type subject. I replied so I can follow along and learn...I share my house with Brandi...my avatar.
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Offline Zef_66

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2016, 10:05:45 AM »
Your situtation sounds interesting. Being that episode 1755 isn't posted yet, there really aren't many questions. But thanks for putting yourself out there and sharing what you know!
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Offline Mr. Bill

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2016, 03:03:31 PM »
I'm listening to the episode now.  Very interesting stuff about how hard it is to do any legal/financial/medical stuff without a goverment-endorsed marriage.

Episode-1755- Is Stateless Marriage Possible

Offline archer

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2016, 04:44:35 PM »
welcome Token. I know some poly families, I'll have to go listen to your interview to see how you handle it.


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Offline Token

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2016, 05:08:48 PM »
Thanks everyone! The show just aired and I pulled this up on my cell phone, so when I get a break I'll try to respond!

Hope everyone is having a great day!

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2016, 05:09:15 PM »
Welcome aboard Token.  I'm looking forward to hearing episode 1755.

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 11:46:05 AM »
This is a topic I'm very interested in and probably being completely single, it's a good time to think about it and flesh some things out. 

Token, you said on the show that if it were possible, you'd go ahead and get a state approved marriage.  And after hearing all of the ramifications in this interview, I'm coming back to that reality myself.

You didn't say you had one, but if you did do a prenup (postbreakup) agreement, what are the things you'd spell out?  Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of division of assets and belongings and custody desires for children.  What am I missing?  Who puts this things together?  Family law attorneys?


Offline r_w

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 01:51:03 PM »
One thing the show solidified for me is that regardless of any contract or prenuptial or how amicable the parties are, extended families can't use family law to completely screw with children and estates.  I knew some of those issues from when I adopted, but did not realize the full extent of evil possible.

Offline theBINKYhunter

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2016, 10:50:58 PM »
Well, I had skipped over this show originally but after reading the intro I'm going to have to give it a listen.


Offline Token

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 09:26:32 AM »
This is a topic I'm very interested in and probably being completely single, it's a good time to think about it and flesh some things out. 

Token, you said on the show that if it were possible, you'd go ahead and get a state approved marriage.  And after hearing all of the ramifications in this interview, I'm coming back to that reality myself.

You didn't say you had one, but if you did do a prenup (postbreakup) agreement, what are the things you'd spell out?  Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of division of assets and belongings and custody desires for children.  What am I missing?  Who puts this things together?  Family law attorneys?

We had a one page written agreement. It basically divided up major assets (and at that time, a couch was a major asset- we were just out of college), and that anything we gathered during the marriage would be split 50-50 if we broke up- since my wife and I took turns being the stay at home spouse, this worked out pretty well.

When our husband joined our marriage, we did about the same thing, but with more of a handshake arrangement- because there are multiple ways that could go wrong or break down (wife leaves, husband leaves, I leave, all three of us break up) it just got complicated enough that we agreed we'd try really hard not to be assholes, and go about this

A benefit we had is I had been in my non-legal first marriage that broke up, and both my husband and wife had done the turn-18-get-married-oh-no-this-was-a-mistake divorces, so we have gone through that rodeo before, and are OK going with the best practices- arbitration before lawyers, etc. None of us are vindictive people, so if we do have to go through that, it will likely go as non-horribly as that sort of thing can.

You can get a prenuptual from an attorney but they are regularly overturned by family courts. Just a simple one or two page agreement on how you'll handle things if the marriage dissolves, and knowing the other person isn't going to go super vindictive crazy (pro tip- don't marry someone who is vengeful).

Offline Chemsoldier

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 09:50:00 AM »
Token, you mentioned that you mentally started down this road reading 60s and 70s science fiction.  Heinlein comes to mind (to me), what were some of your influences?  What shaped your interests to the point of trying to execute an arrangement that turns out to be pretty complex?

Thank you for sharing, it was a fascinating listen.
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Offline Cylon

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2016, 10:18:45 PM »
G'day mate,

Welcome to the mad house!  ;)

I'm still listening to the show at the moment but to be honest i'm pretty nutral with regards to your relationships. Everyone involved is a willing participant, It doesn't hurt or affect me in any way so crack on and be happy!  :D

I am glad to see you taking sensible precautions with regard to the inevitable .gov intrusion though, although it sucks that you have too....

Marrage to me should be between the people involved and the religious institution or contract of their choice. Why in all of the Gods names do we need to ask permission to live our lives with those we love?????

See you down the track eh?  ;)

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Offline Alan Georges

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2016, 11:09:22 AM »
Token, I finally got a chance to listen to your interview with Jack, and I've got to say that you and your spices rock.  The way you turned around Texas law to legally marry your wife when same-sex marriages weren't on the books... that's a classic martial arts move. 8)

Token, you mentioned that you mentally started down this road reading 60s and 70s science fiction.  Heinlein comes to mind (to me), what were some of your influences?
I'm a big Heinlein fan too, and in particular I'd like to hear your take on this as well.

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Offline mesta26

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2016, 05:23:42 PM »
When I read about this interview the only thought in my head was an irrational fear of 2 "honey do" lists, nearly had a heart attack.

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2016, 06:11:32 PM »
I thought it was an interesting discussion; it raised a lot of interesting points to me as I frequently act as a caregiver to my nephews and niece. At the family cabin I also can serve as a watchdog for many children from the neighbors as well. As a former lifeguard I'm always the one in the water with the kids. The concept of caregiver rights and abilities hit home and we'll be having some discussions about being best prepared.

I can't say I'm envious of a man with two wives; one is plenty for me. But as a guy with a few homosexual and bisexual branches in the family tree I'm disgusted how the de jure and de facto restrictions prevent people from having the kind of families they want. "One size fits all" never really does.

Thanks for the insight, all the best.
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Offline Token

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2016, 11:43:41 PM »
When I read about this interview the only thought in my head was an irrational fear of 2 "honey do" lists, nearly had a heart attack.

Since my Wife is disabled and my Hubs hates doing work around the house, I'm the one with the two honey do lists. I have to repair a hole in the celing- this is the THIRD one the wife has poked in the ceiling, for the record, I don't know why she hates the ceiling as much as she does..., tighten some plumbing fixtures in the kitchen sink, scrape and re-paint a bathroom where the previous owners put in paint that was not intended for humid spaces, rewire the switch in that bathroom so if the light is on, the fan is on (there are no windows, it's a problem, everyone hates the noise the fan makes but I'm not fixing the darn paint twice), as well as maintain our rather large yard and hopefully, this year, put in a few garden beds.

Oh, and the cleaning and most of the laundry. And meal planning and shopping. And cooking. And there's a couple of parent teacher confrences I am going to have to ride to solo, as Husband is also working mad hours right now.

This week I'm working 9 days solid. It's not happening right now.  ;D ;D

Token, you mentioned that you mentally started down this road reading 60s and 70s science fiction.  Heinlein comes to mind (to me), what were some of your influences?  What shaped your interests to the point of trying to execute an arrangement that turns out to be pretty complex?

Thank you for sharing, it was a fascinating listen.

Heinlein was the first big one. I think I was 10 when I first read The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and I went on a massive reading binge in my Dad's solid golden age sci fi. It was like something clicked- this was the thing that I had been missing. I knew that I couldn't do monogamy and that I wouldn't cheat, so at that point I figured I was just going to be alone. I'd rather not be with someone than be miserable, or make them miserable.

Spider Robinson's Callahan series (where one person is mentioned as having two wives as not a big deal) came close on those heels, as well as some internet research and time spent at the library. I got ahold of the incredible book The Ethical Slut before I was 13 and that was a real game changer for me- someone else had sat down and gone "The rules for women being in complete ownership of their own bodies in our society suck. Choose what you want, do it while doing your best not to hurt other people, and be safe" was a wonderful, wonderful message for me, and the practical information on how to handle jealousy and scheduling were also fantastic. I think I've purchased 10 copies of that book, I keep giving it away, and I need to get another copy of it.

The only other book I've purchased that many copies of, that never comes back (I had one friend hand me the price on the back of the book after giving her The Ethical Slut because she started going through it with a highlighter the second page in, and she was NOT giving it back, period), is Deerskin by Robin McKinley. People either love it or hate it, but if you love it, I know I'm not getting my copy back. I have two in the house right now because I scored a backup copy for a buck. I'll probably give it to someone pretty soon.

Knowing there were other people who felt a similar way, or at least had done this kind of thought experiment, meant that there were other options. So, I started reading a lot. Heinline went through a few as thought experiments- line marriages, group marriages, marriages as corporations. There's a very healthy online poly community and in the late 90's there was a lot of information on the internet about what did work, did not work, and so on.

The Poly community online is a lot like most fringe communities. There's a good portion of Poly folk that have their shit REALLY well together. Then there's the other group that are super fascinating, interesting, complicated, yet barely functional people. The same sort of spectrum you see at Sci Fi conventions. But I got to talk to people who had been in 20+ year poly marriages, and who had made it work (the best example I have met were the F family- two adults worked outside of the home in high-six figure a year STEM jobs, with an amazingly brilliant stay at home house manager to make sure everything ran smoothly in the house. They had it ALL, man- happy kids, great vacations, home cooked meals, a tightly run budget, a functioning and active involvement in the community, and hot tub parties with hot nekked ladies. I think of them often when I try to think of how I want my family to run. They were truly excellent people, and their shit was more together than any other group I've ever seen.).

Seeing people pull it off made me realize that while you might need two people working to make a house run really smoothly these days, you still need a household manager, and it's WAY easier on everyone to have all three of these tasks fall on different people. I seriously have no idea how two adult families get it all done. Or families where the kids outnumber the adults! :o

I thought it was an interesting discussion; it raised a lot of interesting points to me as I frequently act as a caregiver to my nephews and niece. At the family cabin I also can serve as a watchdog for many children from the neighbors as well. As a former lifeguard I'm always the one in the water with the kids. The concept of caregiver rights and abilities hit home and we'll be having some discussions about being best prepared.

This made my day. Going on the show was kind of scary as hell for me- talking about my family in front of a generally conservative audience was, well, terrifying. :) I'm sure Jack has gotten some spectacularly nasty hate mail. I'm really glad I don't have to read it.

Knowing that it got someone thinking about things they need to do, to make sure that they go over plans on how to take care of kids when things go wrong, and get the caregiver rights taken care of BEFORE the legal guardians are incapacitated, is huge.

Quote
I can't say I'm envious of a man with two wives; one is plenty for me. But as a guy with a few homosexual and bisexual branches in the family tree I'm disgusted how the de jure and de facto restrictions prevent people from having the kind of families they want. "One size fits all" never really does.

Thanks for the insight, all the best.

Yeah, you don't realize how many rules and restrictions there are in the current contracts until you can't use the standard contracts. Just getting a family gym membership or Costco card is SUCH a hassle, and those are, in the great scheme of things, little.

I would love for this country to become liberty minded enough that people in general become comfortable saying "That's not for me, but if that's how you want to live your life, go for it."

Sadly, the last hill that busybodies seem to try to die on is anything that can be even vaguely related to sex. Which, frankly, is the LAST thing I have any interest in having anyone outside my house tell me what, how, or who to do it to. If you're not married to me, you have zero say in what I do with my genitals.  ::)

Let me tell you, we are married. There's a lot more about dirty laundry and bickering over who has to do what chore and me asking why everyone's socks seem to explode off their feet in the freaking living room, and WHO ATE THE LAST OF THE CHEDDAR WITHOUT PUTTING IT ON THE LIST FOR THE STORE, I GUESS WE HAVE NO CHEESE NOW DAMMIT (I've tried getting up to nine blocks a week, to stock up, but I swear between my wife and my child, we can go through 30 lbs of cheese in a week, if I kept them supplied with it).

Yeeeah, anyone who's ever been married more than a month knows that marriage is about a whole lot of other things way before it's about sex.

Allright, it's one AM and I have work... again... in the morning. Although this time it only looks like 9 days in a row- I am REALLY looking forward to getting the new people on board so I don't have to do the work of two people anymore! If I ramble a bit or take a little extra time to come back, forgive me- it's working mad hours while we get extra people on board to cover the workload.

Offline Token

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2016, 11:53:51 PM »
Token, I finally got a chance to listen to your interview with Jack, and I've got to say that you and your spices rock.  The way you turned around Texas law to legally marry your wife when same-sex marriages weren't on the books... that's a classic martial arts move. 8)
I'm a big Heinlein fan too, and in particular I'd like to hear your take on this as well.

Legal Aikido is one of the Wife's specialties. She did a lot of it in the military, and she can make enormous stacks of government paperwork vanish in a remarkably short amount of time. Any time anyone from the government says they want or don't want us to do something, she starts pulling forms and buries them in paperwork. It's a thing of beauty to watch the machine turned against them :D

For this reason, she does the taxes. I can never say how much this means to me... and how sorry I am that are damn ass complicated family taxes all land on her shoulders. I simply throw chocolate at her through a cracked door while she cusses, then I run away because, while I'd happily face down an angry bull for my family, I don't think ANYONE is brave when it comes to dealing with a truly angry wife.

Heinlein is one of the best sci fi writers, ever, but I won't read the rest of his books... because I only get to read them for a first time, once. So I sort of only read them for special occasions. I buried a copy of Grumbles from the Grave with my Dad. That, and the complete works of Shakespeare. I think that says a lot of the special place I have in my heart for the first author I ever fell in love with.

I think Scalzi fills a lot of the space I have (haha, get it?) for Heinline novels- I loved Old Man's War and the follow up books to that. Scalzi is also a neat guy, and one of the few male sci fi writers that seem to understand that women are people... I'm thinking of John Ringo as the perfect counter argument to this, because OMG that man does NOT understand women in the slightest. I still read his books like the words will run away off the page if I don't get to them first, but I do sometimes smack my head against a wall when reading them.

Of course, my Dad was the one who introduced me to sci fi in the first place. :)

Offline Alan Georges

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Re: This is Token from show 1755
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2016, 08:42:27 AM »
Legal Aikido is one of the Wife's specialties. She did a lot of it in the military, and she can make enormous stacks of government paperwork vanish in a remarkably short amount of time. Any time anyone from the government says they want or don't want us to do something, she starts pulling forms and buries them in paperwork. It's a thing of beauty to watch the machine turned against them :D
You and your husband are fortunate to have her!  Taxes, ugh, I still have sore spots on my brain from this year's go-round.

Quote
I think Scalzi fills a lot of the space I have (haha, get it?) for Heinline novels- I loved Old Man's War and the follow up books to that.
How the hell did I miss out on Scalzi?  Show's what a backwater I live in here.  I plead "2007 publication date," those were some crazy years around here.  Many thanks for pointing him out.  First novel in the series downloaded.  :)

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