Author Topic: Payment Processors Terms of Service  (Read 1628 times)

Offline David in MN

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Payment Processors Terms of Service
« on: January 06, 2019, 08:57:00 AM »
Been an odd few weeks in the payment processors world. First, Mastercard used its leverage to get Patreon to ban Robert Spencer.

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/08/15/mastercard-forces-patreon-to-kick-off-jihad-watchs-robert-spencer/

I know, Breitbart. But the mainstream isn't covering the story and the article has sourced material. Spencer runs "Jihad Watch" which is considered by some to be a "hate group". I don't know him from Adam but it is odd to have Mastercard dictate to Patreon who is allowed based on speech.

On a similar odd note Patreon closed the account of Carl Benjamin better known on the internet as Sargon of Akaad. He used the n-word on a show (not his own).

https://heavy.com/news/2018/12/patreon-sargon-of-akkad-jordan-peterson/

I'll agree he spoke poorly and while I understand the point he was trying to make he stepped out of line (my opinion).

Immediately in response Sam Harris closed his Patreon account and within days both Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson have announced they will close theirs January 15.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/12/21/jordan-peterson-dave-rubin-plan-new-site-in-response-to-illiberal-ban/

Peterson (on Rubin's show if you want to hear it yourself) called out a group called "Change the Terms" which focuses on getting payment processors to include hate speech clauses in their terms of service.

https://www.changetheterms.org/

For the first time in the history of the world your economic well being is now tied to your speech. Or maybe your actions. For now it's been confined to the realm of political speech but any small business owner should take heed and realize how their life could be effected by a freeze by payment processors. Mastercard hasn't issued any guidelines on what actions will bring their disdain.

There are a lot of us who do business using Patreon, Ebay, Etsy, Facebook, etc. Losing electronic payments is very bad news.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Payment Processors Terms of Service
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2019, 09:25:21 AM »
Lior Lesser, the top notch digital lawyer who has the popular YouTuber Law channel, is personally crafting a FTC collusion complaint: They have colluded to prevent competitors to Patreon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ySC7edHO0

That said, Patreon is badly bleeding money.  They had to go back to investors for $60 million in further funds to keep the doors open.  to put tyat in perspective, in 2017 they only brought in $7million before expenses.  Jack Conte has no idea how to run a business and his political antics are devestating the bottom lines as users drop. Creators are setting up their own direct payment options and sites like youtube are integrating payment in service now so patreon isquickly  becoming irrelevant. So only thing we need to do is ensure paypal and credit card processors are neutral.  Given they are pseudo government entities that can be done.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 09:31:41 AM by iam4liberty »

Offline surfivor

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Re: Payment Processors Terms of Service
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2019, 09:28:49 AM »

Quote
So only thing we need to do is ensure paypal and credit card processors are neutral.  Given they are pseudo government entities that can be done.

How are the government entities? I am not familiar with that concept here

Offline FreeLancer

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Re: Payment Processors Terms of Service
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2019, 03:19:54 PM »
Most of these guys are switching to bitcoin for donations and are getting a lot of support from the crypto community while trying to transition to an unfamiliar payment system. Bitcoin isn’t great for buying coffee, but it is highly resistant to censorship and confiscation.

Offline iam4liberty

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Re: Payment Processors Terms of Service
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2019, 04:46:11 PM »
How are the government entities? I am not familiar with that concept here

The credit card networks are actually government sanctioned banking cartels operating a price fixing scheme.  Some countries set the interchange rates.  But others like the US and EU set aside antitrust rules for these cartels.  Recently this has been challenged by retailers.  For example, they pushed back hard when the cartels tried the same with swipe fees.  A settlement has been in works for that for a long time: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-creditcards/visa-mastercard-reach-6-2-billion-settlement-over-card-swipe-fees-idUSKCN1LY1PQ 

Offline David in MN

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Re: Payment Processors Terms of Service
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2019, 06:48:02 PM »
I have heard that crypto has played a role here. It's kind of a joke among the crypto people that Dash is the outsider libertarian anarchist coin and Monero belongs to the alt-right neonazi types. Could be. But one of the guys effected here (I can't recall which) lamented that it's not widely enough adopted to be a replacement.

I'm not sure about the credit cards. Mastercard has some real blood on its hands if the story is right. But I don't really know the truth. I'm not up to speed on Jihad Watch and frankly I don't care to learn. Maybe deserved. I do woodwork and I'd refuse to make anything with Nazi imagery (which might be a crime but).

I worry less about Paypal but that's mostly because it's controlled by people who like money more than ideology. Say what you will but guys like Peter Thiel are all business.

I also have a deep seeded worry of this action. Let's say that the banking and payment systems are 100% correct and they are removing dangerous subversives from their platform. Well, we're putting those dangerous subversives underground and teaching them how to move money outside traditional systems. I don't want the actual bad elements in society coached up on how to move and launder money. I'd much rather a violent extremist have a long paper trail than know which Asian nation he can launder crypto through. It's a very bad perverse incentive.

Offline Carver

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Re: Payment Processors Terms of Service
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2019, 07:55:37 PM »
The finance/media cartel sounds to me like racketeering.

Offline surfivor

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Re: Payment Processors Terms of Service
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2019, 10:15:31 PM »
I have heard that crypto has played a role here. It's kind of a joke among the crypto people that Dash is the outsider libertarian anarchist coin and Monero belongs to the alt-right neonazi types. Could be. But one of the guys effected here (I can't recall which) lamented that it's not widely enough adopted to be a replacement.

I'm not sure about the credit cards. Mastercard has some real blood on its hands if the story is right. But I don't really know the truth. I'm not up to speed on Jihad Watch and frankly I don't care to learn. Maybe deserved. I do woodwork and I'd refuse to make anything with Nazi imagery (which might be a crime but).

I worry less about Paypal but that's mostly because it's controlled by people who like money more than ideology. Say what you will but guys like Peter Thiel are all business.

I also have a deep seeded worry of this action. Let's say that the banking and payment systems are 100% correct and they are removing dangerous subversives from their platform. Well, we're putting those dangerous subversives underground and teaching them how to move money outside traditional systems. I don't want the actual bad elements in society coached up on how to move and launder money. I'd much rather a violent extremist have a long paper trail than know which Asian nation he can launder crypto through. It's a very bad perverse incentive.

Wikipedia says Robert Spencer has been on Fox News many times and that he is considered to be anti Islamic. I didn’t really see much else. One of his books is banned in Pakistan. He sometimes reports about stories of people who were killed etc that seem to not get much media coverage

Spencer is also the author of a New York Times bestseller book called “The politically incorrect guide to Islam”. The book was published in 2005 and also discusses the crusades


I am pretty sure he is Jewish also

My impression is that a time could come when the government would want to restrict or ban crypto currency. I see a cashless society as a very bad thing

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 10:41:10 PM by surfivor »

Offline surfivor

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Re: Payment Processors Terms of Service
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2019, 10:53:49 PM »

Interesting

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/robert-spencer

he [spencer] has published 17 books (as of February 2018) focusing on radical Islam, three of which are New York Times best-sellers. Spencer has given seminars on Islam and jihad to the U.S. Central Command, Army Command and General Staff College, the Army’s Asymmetric Warfare Group, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community. He also appears regularly on Fox News Network.