Author Topic: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right  (Read 2710 times)

Offline nano.

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$1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« on: July 15, 2009, 08:16:55 AM »
old hat.. but this is ridiculous... utterly ridiculous.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31921017/ns/politics-capitol_hill/

WASHINGTON - House Democratic leaders, pledging to meet the president's goal of health care legislation before their August break, are offering a $1.5 trillion plan that for the first time would make health care a right and a responsibility for all Americans.

Edited by Jerseyvince in accordance with DMCA rules and regulations
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 03:49:56 PM by JerseyVince »

Offline UnderTheRadar

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 08:41:30 AM »
I have had a right to free government healthcare for over 20 years (disabled vet).  I tried it and ran (limped) away as fast as I could. 

I put up with real pain for years until I finished college and got a job that provided private health care, then got the surgeries.

Government health care scares the hell out of me.  Back pain is treated by pain killers or a complete fuse of your entire spine.  No middle ground, no new or "sports medicine" options.  Teeth hurt?  Pull ALL of them and get dentures.  I hope our vets get better treatment these days.  I once waited all day in their emergency room in significant pain.  5PM came and I was told to come back the next day.  They wheelchaired me to my truck and helped me get in.  Gee thanks.

Universal health care sucks.

UnderTheRadar

Offline LdMorgan

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 07:27:56 PM »
Woof! Here's is a topic I could burst into flame over in just a slight breeze.

What a con job! This whole "Universal Medical Insurance" thing is one giant scam.

Nobody needs universal medical insurance.

Nobody needs medical insurance.

No one. Not any. Zero. Nada!

What we need is affordable health care, so we can pay for it out of our own pockets, if and when we want or need it.

And why don't we have that right now?

1) Because the American Medical Association (and it's cousins like the American Dental Association, et al) actively LIMIT the number of physicians. When the product is scarce and the demand is high, the price goes up--and everybody on the bandwagon makes a killing.

2) Because physicians are required to have medical malpractice insurance.

("Wait!" a patient is saying, somewhere Out There. "We NEED that! What if a doctor makes a MISTAKE??!!")

Surprise, surprise.

In the first place, if the price of medical treatment wasn't forced and kept artificially high, every doctor could pay his malpractice settlements out of pocket.

Malpractice settlements would be in proportion to the cost of treatment, just as they are now, but the amounts would be a lot smaller.

They would be affordably smaller.

In the second place, the cost of malpractice insurance was deliberately manipulated right up into the Stratosphere by a nonexistent "Malpractice Settlement Crisis" about twenty-five years ago.

The insurance companies that perpetrated this fraud bumped their bottom-line profits up from 6% to just over 25% in a single year.

A District Attorney in California investigated the malpractice settlements in six Western states, and found that there was (and had been) no statistically significant change in malpractice payouts by insurance companies for the last ten years or so. At the time.

It was a total hoax.

But the fix was in, then, and it still is, now.

Those initially unaffordable (but mandatory!) malpractice premiums drove the cost of health care up in unaffordable proportion--as physicians passed the cost right on to their patients.

The size of malpractice settlements also rose in similar proportion, but the insurance companies are still making a killing on the difference between the increased premiums and the premium-driven settlements.

With your average insurance policy, 50% of your premiums go straight to the insurance company's agent. The dude who sold you the policy.

The other half pays all operating expenses of the insurance company, including the Fat-Cats salaries and the dividends to the shareholders, with a lot left over. What's left over (about 25%, I think) goes straight into a fund that is invested for profit.

ALL of your future medical needs have been precalculated to never exceed the 25% that they are making the gravy on.

Actuarial tables are a wonderful thing. For insurance companies.

(Yes--insurance companies have to have reserves. And so do banks. But those are
pretty insignificant aspects of the process.)

What if Joe Average could read the tables, and pay himself those same "insurance premiums"? And put them to work making money for him, without wasting 3/4ths of it in the process?

He could draw out what he needed, when he needed it. And he would also have four times as much money available as the statistics say he would ever need--plus all that interest.

And if times were a little tight for a while, he could just pay in 25%, and still have his costs covered.

Gee. Put a doctor's office in every city block (MOL), and get rid of health insurance, and people would actually be able to afford the treatment they needed.

What a concept.

When any group takes away a persons freedom to spend their money if and as they wish, they put that person in chains.

The government does that a lot. And so do cartels and corporations.












Offline scrappy

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 07:38:23 PM »
Hey - if you people don't like universal health care, go find your own country.  This is America.  In America, you are free to have universal health care whether you like it or not!  But it's gonna cost ya.

Hare of Caerbannog

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 08:18:22 PM »
Well said, ldmorgan +1
The only thing that I could add would be to mention how the FDR administration froze auto worker wages causing the auto makers to offer retirement and insurance benefits as a work-around to deal with the government intrusion.
The result was the intrusion into medicine by big insurance interests and the explosion of union power in the auto industry leading to the current auto industry issues and the current power and influence of the health care insurers.

IOW, the government interfering with the auto industry sixty years ago set in motion the death of the American auto industry and the destruction of the free market exchange of medicine.

cause and effect
or if you prefer
The law of unintended consequences

or
The death of the free market.

Offline Sid

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2009, 05:54:22 PM »
Whenever government gets involved in a market there is a mess.

I think insurance is a very bad product.  It puts a middle man between the doctor and the patient so the patient has little incentive to negotiate a better price and the doctor has an open pocketbook to pick.  I think the ultimate solution is to make prepaid medical contracts illegal, which would outlaw all medical insurance except for accident insurance.  The result would be that people would have absolutely no incentive to get unnecessary or marginal treatment, and doctors would have a serious limit on what they could charge.  Before this medical mess developed, most people did not have insurance, and doctors and hospitals often charged based on ability to pay, plus there were many charities which assisted people with catastrophic medical costs, not to mention friends and family.

Of course there is the problem of the doctors union, the drug monopoly (oligopoly), the licensing of medical professionals and hospitals, and the outlawing of alternative treatments, all of which drive up costs, and do little to protect the public from incompetence.  But this is just more of the black hand of government which prevents the free market from functioning, and transfers wealth out of the hands of the majority into the hands of the privileged few.


Offline Buffy

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2009, 06:11:55 PM »
What really scares me is what will happen to the quality of doctors.
As a nurse in a surgical facility, there are some docs that I wouldn't allow to work on roadkill much less me or my family.  I'd rather use the Popiell pocket surgo-matic.
And there are some who are worth every penny, they usually don't "accept assignment" which means you pay what your insurance doesn't cover.
Some of the very best surgeons that I know are simply getting out of it. Retiring early or leaving the field.
Who is going to want to go into medicine? And who is going to be still in practice who never should have been?
At least I know enough to spot a quack. How many people do?

I think people who can afford it will get their healthcare offshore.
Take a Princess Cruise, stop off at a nearby island, get what you need and a tan while you're at it.

sage0925

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 07:00:47 PM »
I adore my doctor...I'll be REALLY pissed if I can't go to him anymore. He's a dumpy vegetarian (I think he needs to lay off the cheese, he's getting fat), sweet as hell, actually has a clue about the reactions between herbal medicine and pharmaceuticals, knows mucho about alternative methodologies, and doesn't try to throw antibiotics or other medication at me every time I go in there. He restricts the meds to what I can pay for, instead of what the drug rep shoved in his face the day before. He also suggests herbals to try if I can't afford the meds.

I don't want their bullshit health care plan...our esteemed government officials won't be using it, why should I??? And even if they WERE going to use it, you know those fat cats would get themselves pushed to the head of the line! They certainly won't have to wait...THEY'RE TOO important! I hope every shitbag who votes for this crap gets some hideous non-curable disease and dies a miserable death. *pant, *pant*

Oh look, a chicken...

Offline Buffy

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 07:24:51 PM »
[

Oh look, a chicken...
[/quote]
Is that a segue or just you ADD kicking in?

sage0925

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2009, 07:48:02 PM »
*puzzled* I thought it was ADHD...or maybe DDAH? or HHHH? What?    ;D

Offline Buffy

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2009, 07:50:17 PM »
*puzzled* I thought it was ADHD...or maybe DDAH? or HHHH? What?    ;D
DOH!

Offline LdMorgan

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2009, 09:01:03 AM »
(I love you guys. And your chicken.)

Governments enable cartels like drug companies and insurance companies. And banks. And the Fed. And pari-mutuel gambling operations like Wall Street.

Government officials exempt themselves from the laws that apply to us, and set up their own cushy arrangements for retirement, privileged medical care, travel, etc.

We are losing some of the best practitioners in the medical field just as we need them, mostly because of government over-regulation and predatory malpractice lawsuits and equally predatory malpractice insurance premiums.

We have made great strides in "mainstream" medicine, at the exclusionary cost of making those same strides in other forms of medicine at the same time. Courtesy of the AMA, of course.

However, the two worst things that the AMA does are perpetuate illness--farm it rather than end it--and cover up for the incompetents and serial butchers that prosper in their ranks.

If I were Emperor, things would be VERY different. And my Headsman would have VERY large biceps...

Offline Klapton

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2009, 01:35:29 PM »
I'm beginning to plan my life as if doctor's offices and hospitals won't exist.  Having received my treatment from the VA for a number of years, I know exactly what government-run healthcare is like.  I do better Scroogling things on my computer and taking care of myself.

Offline Buffy

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Re: $1.5 trillion plan would make health care a right
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2009, 05:07:26 PM »
Some of my early nursing training took place at a VA hospital.
This facility had state of the art equipment that apparently no one used.
None of the staff seemed to be required to provide patient care. One "aide" seemed to spend all of her time smoking while sitting with patients.
I had my team members initial their dressing changes, changes that were supposed to be twice daily, and when we came in on Monday, the dressings we had placed Friday were untouched.
During the six weeks we were there a patient on another floor committed suicide.
And yet in six weeks a team of genuinely dedicated students accomplished a great deal. Bedsores healed, one patient went from five point restraint and tube feedings to home discharge.
This was years ago, and maybe things have changed, I hope so.
I hope this was not a taste of the future of healthcare in this country, but I am not optimistic.